Todays fitba

[BigAl]

Hibs a goal up and playing against ten men 

[Jute]

Sapsford looks like a striker who can control the ball and pass it accurately. Never catch on.

 

Hibs just gone 1-0 up in Belgrade and it appears Belgrade down to 10.

 

[BigAl]

2-1 Rapid

[Jute]

2-1 Rapid. Awful defending from United. 

[tlg1903]

11 minutes ago, BigAl said:

Hibs a goal up and playing against ten men 

Got that on the radio, Hibs have a great chance to make the play off now and hopefully get into the league phase. 

[Jute]

21 minutes ago, tlg1903 said:

Got that on the radio, Hibs have a great chance to make the play off now and hopefully get into the league phase. 

Looking like they will be playing Legia Warsaw who lost 4-1 to Larnaca today. 

[BigAl]

With forty minutes to go in Vienna, I think The Arabs would be happy to get out of there with a one goal defeat.

Rapid look like they can almost create chances at will.

[Jute]

Hibs 2-0 up after getting an extremely soft penalty thanks to VAR.

[BigAl]

Hibs double their lead

Boyle with a penalty 

That is looking like an outstanding result 

[BigAl]

Arabs level 

[BigAl]

Credit where credit is due, that is a couple of outstanding results by Hibs & Dundee Utd tonight 

[RicoS321]

I'm assuming Utd will be releasing a commemorative DVD before the home leg?

[manc_don]

40 minutes ago, BigAl said:

Credit where credit is due, that is a couple of outstanding results by Hibs & Dundee Utd tonight 

Can't argue with that at all. Kudos to them both.

[tlg1903]

For many years I rolled my eyes at the  ugly sisters doing well in Europe being good for Scottish football rhetoric.  Because it wasn't, it was only good for them.  Things are very different now, the introduction of the conference league has been an overwhelming success if you ask me.  It gives clubs that wouldn't have a sniff at playing European football until December/January previously a real chance to do so. 

 

According to Scotlands coefficient on twitter we need to get 4 teams into the league phase to have a decent chance to stay inside the top 15 and keep 5 euro places.  As such I am defo taking off my red tinted specs far more when it comes to Scottish teams in Europe now and I'm genuinely delighted by both results tonight.  5 clubs getting into the league phase would be an amazing achievement and 100% good for Scottish football.  

[OrlandoDon]

15 minutes ago, tlg1903 said:

For many years I rolled my eyes at the  ugly sisters doing well in Europe being good for Scottish football rhetoric.  Because it wasn't, it was only good for them.  Things are very different now, the introduction of the conference league has been an overwhelming success if you ask me.  It gives clubs that wouldn't have a sniff at playing European football until December/January previously a real chance to do so. 

 

According to Scotlands coefficient on twitter we need to get 4 teams into the league phase to have a decent chance to stay inside the top 15 and keep 5 euro places.  As such I am defo taking off my red tinted specs far more when it comes to Scottish teams in Europe now and I'm genuinely delighted by both results tonight.  5 clubs getting into the league phase would be an amazing achievement and 100% good for Scottish football.  

You’re meaning this as long as rangers and Celtic lose every euro league game, correct? Ideally, Scottish league games too.

[RicoS321]

45 minutes ago, tlg1903 said:

For many years I rolled my eyes at the  ugly sisters doing well in Europe being good for Scottish football rhetoric.  Because it wasn't, it was only good for them.  Things are very different now, the introduction of the conference league has been an overwhelming success if you ask me.  It gives clubs that wouldn't have a sniff at playing European football until December/January previously a real chance to do so. 

 

According to Scotlands coefficient on twitter we need to get 4 teams into the league phase to have a decent chance to stay inside the top 15 and keep 5 euro places.  As such I am defo taking off my red tinted specs far more when it comes to Scottish teams in Europe now and I'm genuinely delighted by both results tonight.  5 clubs getting into the league phase would be an amazing achievement and 100% good for Scottish football.  

I don't see how it's different. Attempting to create another unbreachable tier really, that we happen to be within. It doesn't benefit Scottish football at all, it benefits us, Hearts, Hibs and perhaps one other every so often. It's a fucking horrendous tournament, with contrived wanky leagues, that seeks to takeaway from domestic football with the eventual goal of European leagues and perhaps B teams gracing the domestic scene. We're in a situation where the talk about getting European football, is the unfair, unequal and unsporting injection of guaranteed cash that gets thrown at the team in third. Not just about us getting it, but it being essential that [one of] the other team[s] doesn't. There is zero benefit to Dundee, St Mirren, Livingston, Motherwell etc to us getting six times the prize money we receive from our league position (or cup win) just for being in a competition. Just as there isn't a benefit to us from the Huns or Tims doing so. Until unearned European prize money is shared equally between teams in our league, then it will continue to destroy the competition within the league and lead to compound inequality. By design. It's good for us, but it isn't good for Scottish football. Suggesting it is, is the exact blinkered view that the Scottish media present as to why we should support the scum in Europe. It's simply a question of degree.

[tlg1903]

30 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

You’re meaning this as long as rangers and Celtic lose every euro league game, correct? Ideally, Scottish league games too.

I don't think you understand how dire a position the Scottish coefficient is in and that's not a criticism btw as it not that easy to understand.  Hell, I don't fully understand it but I know it's not in a good place.   With that in mind I really don't care particularly where the coeffient points come from and, quite frankly, none of us should.  3rd place getting guaranteed league stage football has been the best thing to happen to the  Scottish top flight since the play offs came in.  I don't think that's particularly arguable to be honest.  To our own club, according to the chairman, it has been worth 6 million net if you include the upcoming campaign.  For context you don't even get half that for winning the league. 

 

With regards to the huns and tims I look at it like this.  If they win I can console myself with coefficient points and if they lose I get to laugh at them.  Win win really. 

[tlg1903]

1 minute ago, RicoS321 said:

I don't see how it's different. Attempting to create another unbreachable tier really, that we happen to be within. It doesn't benefit Scottish football at all, it benefits us, Hearts, Hibs and perhaps one other every so often. It's a fucking horrendous tournament, with contrived wanky leagues, that seeks to takeaway from domestic football with the eventual goal of European leagues and perhaps B teams gracing the domestic scene. We're in a situation where the talk about getting European football, is the unfair, unequal and unsporting injection of guaranteed cash that gets thrown at the team in third. Not just about us getting it, but it being essential that [one of] the other team[s] doesn't. There is zero benefit to Dundee, St Mirren, Livingston, Motherwell etc to us getting six times the prize money we receive from our league position (or cup win) just for being in a competition. Just as there isn't a benefit to us from the Huns or Tims doing so. Until unearned European prize money is shared equally between teams in our league, then it will continue to destroy the competition within the league and lead to compound inequality. By design. It's good for us, but it isn't good for Scottish football. Suggesting it is, is the exact blinkered view that the Scottish media present as to why we should support the scum in Europe. It's simply a question of degree.

Whilst you make valid points you're only looking at the status quo. Look at the bigger picture.  What happens if Scotland regularly get 5 teams into the league phase?  Inevitably the Scottish league would eventually get another European place. So there's a benefit straight away for another club.  Also, the biggest criticism about Scottish football globally is it's just rangers and celtic. 5 teams playing in the league phase of European completion would challenge that and grow the profile of our league perhaps, especially if one or two of them go on a run (look at bodo glimt last season).  Also more money for more clubs means better players and increased standard on the pitch. From there you have the potential to be negotiating improved tv deals which absolutely could be of benefit to the clubs of the spfl.   

 

I would also add we are seeing increasing numbers of young players going down south as they are low risk gambles for English clubs.  Don't know about anyone else but I'm started to get a little bit worried by this talent drain. Often they rot in youth systems never getting the development they need from 1st team football at the crucial 18-21 stage.  The more money at Scottish clubs the more chance we have to keep them and actually play them which I would defo say is to the benefit of the Scottish game.  I ain't saying it's perfect, far from it, but it's a shit ton better than it was.  

[manc_don]

20 minutes ago, tlg1903 said:

I would also add we are seeing increasing numbers of young players going down south as they are low risk gambles for English clubs.  Don't know about anyone else but I'm started to get a little bit worried by this talent drain. Often they rot in youth systems never getting the development they need from 1st team football at the crucial 18-21 stage.  The more money at Scottish clubs the more chance we have to keep them and actually play them which I would defo say is to the benefit of the Scottish game.  I ain't saying it's perfect, far from it, but it's a shit ton better than it was.  

Your last paragraph is an interesting one as it can be taken both ways. The overall quality of the league should improve but could this be a case that it won’t matter what we do, youth will always go down south for apparent better money? We’re a long way from being able to compete and nor should we realistically, as it isn’t sustainable, but are we also not already seeing the flip side that has been the case from the cheeks for a good decade or two? A distinct lack of local talent coming through clubs in and around the euro places? More money appears to close pathways off for academy players, as we’ve seen with our own. I’m not sure what the solution is., as people will also leave for reasons.

[Panda]

Will always cheer for any non old firm club in Europe, because I know none of them will ever win it, and every coefficient point they get benefits us. Plus you'd need to be really bitter to begrudge Hibs and United fans having a decent European trip to Belgrade and Vienna. Good on them. Most of them will be cheering for us too when it's our turn.

Old Firm being in CL has no benefit to us. They get all the money but hardly any coefficient points. Don't really mind them doing well in the Europa league (as long as they don't get close to winning it).

As for where we actually want to be ranked, you only want to be 11th or 12th (or top 6, but that's unrealistic).

Being 11th or 12th means guaranteed group stage football for the Scottish Cup winners, but no guaranteed Champions League place for Celtic or Rangers. So that's the sweet spot.

Lot of work to get back up there.

[RicoS321]

7 hours ago, tlg1903 said:

Whilst you make valid points you're only looking at the status quo. Look at the bigger picture.  What happens if Scotland regularly get 5 teams into the league phase?  Inevitably the Scottish league would eventually get another European place. So there's a benefit straight away for another club.  Also, the biggest criticism about Scottish football globally is it's just rangers and celtic. 5 teams playing in the league phase of European completion would challenge that and grow the profile of our league perhaps, especially if one or two of them go on a run (look at bodo glimt last season).  Also more money for more clubs means better players and increased standard on the pitch. From there you have the potential to be negotiating improved tv deals which absolutely could be of benefit to the clubs of the spfl.   

 

I would also add we are seeing increasing numbers of young players going down south as they are low risk gambles for English clubs.  Don't know about anyone else but I'm started to get a little bit worried by this talent drain. Often they rot in youth systems never getting the development they need from 1st team football at the crucial 18-21 stage.  The more money at Scottish clubs the more chance we have to keep them and actually play them which I would defo say is to the benefit of the Scottish game.  I ain't saying it's perfect, far from it, but it's a shit ton better than it was.  

I'm not only looking at the status quo, and I am looking at the bigger picture. The bigger picture is exactly as I suggested - another tier in Scottish football. There will not be five teams playing regularly in groups, but if there were, it would taper off to being just those few teams who begin to dominate financially. The evidence for this is overwhelming, because it's exactly how the Huns and Tims gained their forty year dominance. The shitey Euro leagues just do exactly the same thing. The early recipients of the windfall use that to get the windfall again and again. It takes time to settle, of course, but within decade you have exactly the same problem. You're basically arguing that the answer to the problem of inequality is more of the same. It's not just in football, obviously, it's very basic trickle-down economics, with evidence in every single walk of life. We've had fifty years of Thatcher/Regan policy worldwide, showing us that inequality increases and that trickle-down economics is nonsense, for very obvious reasons. Of course, this is exactly what UEFA wants. They're not trying to create competition within leagues, so I'm not sure why anyone would think that'd be the goal of this expansion. It's about bringing more clubs into their dominion. Clubs that begin to rely on their funds and will agree to whatever bollocks they come up with next. The very obvious destination is European leagues, which for leagues like ours will mean B teams being shoehorned in (witness the total destruction, ongoing, of the challenge cup, for the sole benefit of the premier league - but mainly the scum). There is no other bigger picture here, what you've argued is a very narrow window that looks at the benefits for between 1-4 teams. Is it better for Aberdeen? Probably. Although I'd argue that it's only better if you're too partisan to see the view from the perspective of other clubs - which is exactly what the Huns and Tims do. I spoke to one of my Tim mates about the abomination that is the Euro leagues last night, and he said it was great because if they're third seed then they have a chance of getting through (in other words, completely ignored the point, and could only see it from how it benefited them). 

All European prize money should go into a single pot and distributed evenly across the league (with a significant portion going downward). That is the only way that the trite and objectively nonsense saying "a rising tide lifts all boats" could be applied. Not by the endlessly tried and failed methods of the trickle down.

[BigAl]

Must compliment TLG, Rico and Panda for the quality of posting on this page of this thread.

I can honestly say that as I've caught up on this this morning I've found my opinion on the matter at hand (European club football and its merits for the Scottish and wider game) changing by post.

Each of you have points that I found myself agreeing with, even if in part it contradicted what I'd agreed with in the previous post.

Maybe however, it is simply old age catching up on me and making me more senile and unable to remember what I thought a couple of minutes previously  

[tlg1903]

5 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

I'm not only looking at the status quo, and I am looking at the bigger picture. The bigger picture is exactly as I suggested - another tier in Scottish football. There will not be five teams playing regularly in groups, but if there were, it would taper off to being just those few teams who begin to dominate financially. The evidence for this is overwhelming, because it's exactly how the Huns and Tims gained their forty year dominance. The shitey Euro leagues just do exactly the same thing. The early recipients of the windfall use that to get the windfall again and again. It takes time to settle, of course, but within decade you have exactly the same problem. You're basically arguing that the answer to the problem of inequality is more of the same. It's not just in football, obviously, it's very basic trickle-down economics, with evidence in every single walk of life. We've had fifty years of Thatcher/Regan policy worldwide, showing us that inequality increases and that trickle-down economics is nonsense, for very obvious reasons. Of course, this is exactly what UEFA wants. They're not trying to create competition within leagues, so I'm not sure why anyone would think that'd be the goal of this expansion. It's about bringing more clubs into their dominion. Clubs that begin to rely on their funds and will agree to whatever bollocks they come up with next. The very obvious destination is European leagues, which for leagues like ours will mean B teams being shoehorned in (witness the total destruction, ongoing, of the challenge cup, for the sole benefit of the premier league - but mainly the scum). There is no other bigger picture here, what you've argued is a very narrow window that looks at the benefits for between 1-4 teams. Is it better for Aberdeen? Probably. Although I'd argue that it's only better if you're too partisan to see the view from the perspective of other clubs - which is exactly what the Huns and Tims do. I spoke to one of my Tim mates about the abomination that is the Euro leagues last night, and he said it was great because if they're third seed then they have a chance of getting through (in other words, completely ignored the point, and could only see it from how it benefited them). 

All European prize money should go into a single pot and distributed evenly across the league (with a significant portion going downward). That is the only way that the trite and objectively nonsense saying "a rising tide lifts all boats" could be applied. Not by the endlessly tried and failed methods of the trickle down.

I see where you're coming from but you're basing this on it being the same teams that qualify for europe every single year because that's how it went with the ugly sisters.  The big flaw there to my eye is that the size difference between the us, hearts,  hibs (who are all similar size) and all the smaller clubs than us in the league is nowhere near as big as the gap between the three mentioned and Rangers and Celtic.  Regardless of their euro qualification they were always going to finish top 2 because they had way more money anyway and back in those days virtually every other club in the league was carrying crippling debt (up to 12 mill in our case).  That is no longer the case and  I don't think you can say in say ten years time it's only going to be the same 5 teams qualifying for Europe every single season.  How many times have we seen the big two have a mare of a season and massively underperform?  Loads.  Hell we probably would have finished second last season if we hadn't collapsed.  Add in the struggles we all have when playing thursday/sunday and I think  you would still see a fair bit of rotation for the 5th place at the very least.  

[Goldie03]

3 hours ago, BigAl said:

Must compliment TLG, Rico and Panda for the quality of posting on this page of this thread.

I can honestly say that as I've caught up on this this morning I've found my opinion on the matter at hand (European club football and its merits for the Scottish and wider game) changing by post.

Each of you have points that I found myself agreeing with, even if in part it contradicted what I'd agreed with in the previous post.

Maybe however, it is simply old age catching up on me and making me more senile and unable to remember what I thought a couple of minutes previously  

This for me too Al  

 I do sometimes wonder wonder Rico does for living when he posts his gigantic comments - think the last  Booker prize winner had less words haha 

I was thinking today that if along with us, Hibs & Utd also progress into the group stages I really don't want jambos getting free run at all the League points!! 

 

[BigAl]

3 minutes ago, Goldie03 said:

I was thinking today that if along with us, Hibs & Utd also progress into the group stages I really don't want jambos getting free run at all the League points!! 

 

Maybe this explains Blooming Tony's thinking behind his claims they're winning it