tom_widdows

What is your proposal to resolve the stadium issue?

Suspect they are only appealing it as the appeals board doesnt meet till the end of the month. Lodging the appeal now means brown can face sevco twice.

personally I think AK is actually more than one person. The tone and general language of the posts arent consistent.

Third Place and European Football Assured..... but at the expense of Manc & Rocket 85 83 82 81 - MBT 80 79 78 77 - Tyrant 76 75 74 - Nellie The Don 73 - BigAl 72 - Edinburghdon 71 - Oxford Don (2nd Place Assured) 70 69 68 - Thomsod 67 - Jute 66 - Manc 65 - rocket 64 63 - Tom_Widdows 62 61

St Mirren continuing their 'Great Escape' at Morton tonight. Probably means there will be a Championship party in Leith on Saturday Night

Before Swiss Tony jumps decides to way in Don Rickles - 90 AKA

MBT bows out for another year 85 83 82 81 - MBT 80 79 78 77 - Tyrant 76 75 74 - Nellie The Don (2nd Place Assured) 73 - BigAl 72 - Edinburghdon 71 - Oxford Don 70 69 68 - Thomsod (European Football Assured) 67 - Jute 66 - Manc 65 - rocket 64 63 - Tom_Widdows 62 61

It may suggest that but as I said it all depends on the attitude of the Council. Given the antics that went down after the last Aberdeen Council election nothing is guaranteed.

Original Planning Permission expired on January 2016 and to date no application to have it renewed has been submitted. The proposed new houses/ flats are to be directly opposite the Loch although the Developer/ Applicant does also own the strip of Land directly opposite what would have been one of the stadium access points. Either way they are well clear of the where the stadium was meant to go and have a dual carriageway as a dividing line. In terms of renewing Planning Permission it can be done but it can be a slog depending on the Council's Attitude I recently worked on renewing an expired application for Twenty 1-Bedroom Flats and the Local Planning Team seemed hell bent on refusing it even though there is supposedly a shortage of such properties in the area. We jumped through lots of hoops, updated the design, and resolved every issue they raised but it wasn't until the Head of the Council got involved that the permission was renewed. Renewing permission for a large sports stadium though....

Not known for being the most positive, and reading the early posts on this threads which talked about cricket score wins I had a gut feeling the run would end today. I didn't expect to go into Sainsburys at 0-0 and come out 10mins later to find 3-0 but nothing really surprises me following the Dons. Who else remembers the Skovdahl teams 8 straight home wins run ending spectacularly in a 6-1 defeat to Livi? Personally I am not worried about Hearts, St Johnstone on the other hand.... Anyway to put things in perspective. Dons need 4 points from last 6 games to secure 3rd. However a win at McDiarmed Park next Saturday and 3rd is Secured. Dons need 10 points from last 6 games to secure second. Everytime Sevco drop points that target drops and they still have to face the Tic and an inform Partick twice Dons goal difference is +34 whereas Sevcos is +12 and a 22 goal swing in the last 6 games is unlikely so optimists could say only 9 points are needed. Onwards and upwards

Done a rough layout for that one too. End up with a Braga Style Stadium. No idea of the capacity, or the logistics of being able to extend the RDS though. May I take the opportunity to remind and engage Kingsford man with the news that the Easter Road Redevelopment has already been covered in this thread. As for the flats behind the newest stand? Planning Permission for the New Hibs East Stand was granted in February 2005. The Planning Application for those new flats wasn't submitted until 2010 and the developers kept adjusting it to the extent the application is still not fully determined. The Developers knew the new stand was coming and had to design accordingly. With regards to there being nothing in front (or behind depending on your view) of the RDS can I ask why you appear to be ignoring the massive concourse which was required as part of the 1992/93 redevelopment so the 6200 fans inside plus a potential over-spill from the South Stand can be safely contained without blocking Golf Road or Pittodrie Street?

At the risk of really chucking the grenade in I have actually worked out a very basic layout for a redeveloped Pittodrie using a Site Plan downloaded from an old application. OS Maps are good but can be slightly off but this is the breakdown I have worked out based on the steepest stand gradient (34degrees), minimum aisle widths, The new stands being the the same distance from the Boundary lines, and before the really complicated aspect of removing seats to allow for vomitories, corporate facilities. I also have not worked out a section for a redeveloped south stand which would need to house modern changing rooms, media facilites, medical rooms, staff facilities, offices, boardrooms, vehicle access (club & emergency) as well as the fan facilities (toilets, snack bars etc). The amount of digging out/ retention around the south stand carpark to get the new club facilites/ emergency vehicle access to a redeveloped south stand could be a bit scary. Anyway the breakdown so far is as follows New Main Stand - 1798 (Average 198 seats per row) New Merkland Stand - 2193 (Average 129 seats per row) New (simplistic) South Stand - 2840 (Average 198 seats per row) Existing RDS - 6200 TOTAL - 13,031 I did not appreciate the problem retaining the RDS causes when installing a pitch which will ensure long term compliance with UEFA and should the opportunity actually arise mean the club did not have any issues with playing champions league football. The existing pitch is 110yards (100.5m) x 72yards (66m) and is very close to the south & Main stand perimeter tracks (about 1m of grass before you hit the sand). UEFAs max pitch size is 120yards (110m) x 80yards (73m) so it would be stupid not to install this size. For player safety the pitch should extend more than 1m beyond the touchlines (I have allowed for 5m) and then there is the perimeter track (I have allowed for 5m again). In doing this the pitch area (grass+tracks) increases from approx 79m x 121m to 95m x 130m. Centering the pitch on the RDS reduces the main, south & Merkland stand depths by 8m each. Because of the proximity of Merkland Lane & Pittodrie Street Section Y of the South stand and the corner infill between the main and merkland would need to go to allow for concourses. I am going to see what size of pitch and track has been allowed for at Kingsford and put that on the CAD to see if it makes a difference but I am skeptical.

What about 50% of the South Stand and the entire Merkland Stand? You mean the Emergency Concourse required to hold minimum 6220 fans plus Emergency Vehicles and installed as part of the Stand's Construction in 1994? I deduce from this that you have not read or are choosing to ignore any of my comments about how the redeveloped Tynecastle works or how it was possible. Pittodrie Main Stand Backing directly onto a public roads..... Tynecastle Main Stand as opposed to backing onto a carpark, Club Shop & Admin Office, Supporters Club, and a Council Run Nursery the latter of which is being relocated as part of the New Stand works. Loads of Room you say? What are you talking about? Who keeps saying Kingsford is Based on Ashton Gate? As with the RDS that section of the Ground is not an Issue. The Issues are the Sections which back onto Merkland Lane & Pittodrie Street. Two Roads which enclose more than 50% of the Stadium. The graveyard is totally irrelevant. The New Flats between the South Stand and Graveyard are not. No one has said Pittodrie cannot be redeveloped. The have said it cannot be redeveloped to a 20000 capacity. A Large chunk of this thread has been about this but as with your Tynecastle comments I deduce you either havent read them or are chosing to ignore them. Speaking of Evidence though. How about those Alternative Sites the Council have offered the Club?

This picture shows what they were replacing. Note the difference in height.

I think you may have misread the 3D image if you think any of the proposed houses are closer to the existing houses than the stadium. Either way before anyone can even consider building houses on the Pittodrie site they have to submit a detailed planning application (similar amount of information to the Kingsford stadium application). Planning permission in principle only means the council have said 'yes this area could be used for up to 350 houses. Also what point are you trying to make by posting Generic 3D visuals from an approved 'Planning permission in principle' application? Are you suggesting that the locals would rather have a football stadium on their doorstep as opposed to brand new housing and green spaces? If the club does relocated and Pittodrie is turned into houses the house prices in that area will jump and the residents won't have to put up with restricted parking on matchdays or the potential risk having 20000 people suddenly decend on your doorstep every second weekend. Anyway on the subject of daylighting problems with stadiums this is an example of when football clubs fail to take it into consideration and lose in court.

Strikers: Rooney 18 Stockley 6 Burns 1 Storey 1 Midfielders: McGinn 14 McLean 5 Hayes 8 Maddison 2 Pawlett 3 Christie 3 Jack 2 Defenders: Considine 7 Logan 4 O'Connor 2 Taylor 2 Shinnie 2 OGs 2

First casualty of the season. Rocket & Manc to follow come Sunday Evening? 85 83 82 81 - MBT 80 79 78 77 - Tyrant 76 75 74 - Nellie The Don (2nd Place Assured) 73 - BigAl 72 - Edinburghdon 71 - Oxford Don 70 69 68 - Thomsod (European Football Assured) 67 - Jute 66 - Manc 65 - rocket 64 63 - Tom_Widdows 62 61

Again you still haven't found one with a similar situation to pittodrie. Not a single stand at Windsor park backs onto a public road and all fan access and egress is from controlled zones around the stadium before entering public roads. The Windsor park redevelopment also had the advantage of the 3 redeveloped sides not being boxed in by domestic properties.

Brand New Stadium on unconstrained plot of land As opposed to existing stadium constrained by Housing, & Collector Roads. If you are going to continue with 'This is how I see the redeveloped pittodrie looking', may I suggest you search for examples of redeveloped stadiums in constrained environments.

Firhill North stand 1) Has two circulation routes. One at the Front between the seats and the advertisement boards One underneath the Seats accessed from within the stand by two Vomitories. 2) Both Circulation routes are accessed from a large open concourse between the stand and the turnstiles. This Space will act as a holding area in an emergency so evacuation can be controlled IE 2000 people are not immediately running onto Firhill Road blocking/ getting knocked down by Emergency vehicles. 3) Whilst the stand technically has only one entry point via Firhill Road (The Old Terrace was accessed from both Firhill Road & what is now known as Firhill Court) the open concourse also appears to provide access to circulation route along the front of the old Main stand. Fans could be directed this way should part of the concourse be required for Emergency vehicle parking. Heres the thing about Firhill's redevelopment 1) Only the Main stand is constrained by a Collector Road. Try to redevelop that and they will face the same problems the Dons will. 2) All other access around the stadium was for the stadium ie no houses, flats etc needed it. See point 1 3) Partick had a larger footprint behind their old Terrace as it was curved like Hampden. So large in fact they were able to build a stand and sell land to a developer to build 4 Blocks of Student flats whilst still maintaining the necessary shared access road around the 3 sides of the stadium. If you like I can tell you the reasons the opposite end of Firhill is not currently used.

And was paid for by Tesco It is also within a self contained site with no major roads running right behind the stands. Fans exiting the stadium do so into carpark and concourse areas Can everyone please understand that the moment the Main Stand & Merkland are demolished the requirement for controllable emergency concourses kicks in. Merkland Lane & Pittodrie Street are public 'collector' roads which can only be closed for maintenance or in emergency situations. This is why you risk getting run down when queuing to get in and when leaving. You cannot close these streets without providing an equal & approved alternative as you are affecting emergency/ service vehicle access for the surrounding residential & commercial businesses. This means the break out concourse will need to be contained within the footprint of both IE the entire capacity of the stand can be contained without anyone being forced to step onto the roads (perhaps even the pavement depending on where the site boundary is). The only way I can see this being achieved in the Main & Merkland is to (as Ten Caat has already said) move all admin/ changing rooms etc to the South. Raise the seating area up on stilts and put the turnstiles right at the front (as close to the pitch as possible) making it look similar to Hamilton's ground from the inside. Fans would walk underneath the stands, through the turnstiles then walk alongside the pitch and up sets of stairs. The circulation route between the turnstiles and the pitch would depend on the stand capacity. A 1000 seat stand requires a 5.3m wide route. A 2000 seat stand would require 10.6m and so on (5.3mm x capacity). Allowing for a cantilevered roof, support columns etc cuts the number of potential seating rows however it wouldn't matter how many seats you could install, you would only get a safety certificate for the amount of fans which can safely escape and be contained in an emergency. The redeveloped south stand has the problem of having to achieve a wide enough escape routes for fans + the additional width required for emergency vehicle access a the same time as a mass evacuation. Having to fit Admin offices, changing rooms, corporate facilities etc further complicates this. You would have more chance of getting more than 12000 seats if you actually removed the main stand completely thereby turning pittodrie into a 3 sided stadium, move the pitch closer to pittodrie street allowing the South stand footprint to be increased. This might actually allow a redeveloped south stand to be constructed higher than the existing depending on the distance between it and the flats behind. This then adds the complication of adapting/ extending the RDS. Can't build any higher than existing without objections from the neighbours If you fill in the corners how do emergency vehicles get onto the pitch? If you fill in the corners how would a mass evacuation from the pitch be achieved (The last resort for stadiums is fans escaping onto the pitch and out through the emergency vehicle access routes)? As above it doesnt matter how many seats or standing places you put in, you will only get a safety certificate for the number of people who can be safely evacuated and if necessary contained in a protected area.

34 games in which the attendance was more than 12000. Say if Pittodrie only had a 12000 capacity over the last 4 seasons the club would have missed out on revenue from approx 103,000 people @ say £21 per ticket = £2,163,000 in ticket money + merchandise + Food & Drink. Yeah lets reduce the capacity and say goodbye to that kind of income. Item 1 - Yes Item 2 - Replace it with what? its a Glazed barrier of at least 1100mm height constructed in compliance with BS EN 1991-1-1/PD 6688-1-1. Replacing it will not help the screwed up sight lines Only quickly skimmed the jambos board but I don't see anything that suggests an away fans boycott from one of Scotlands bigger clubs I point blank refuse to click on follow follow but given they failed to organise a serious boycott at tannadice over being charged to attend a rescheduled match I seriously doubt that horrible club would not pack out and as per usual, vandilise the away end in a new stadium. item 1 - Absolutely. Lets get a nice new fully enclosed stadium with equal sized stands. Item 2 - Really? I've been in what I thought was a great bounce in one stand (South or RDS). Then after the game I hear complaints from fans sat in other stands about lack of singing and atmosphere. Are all the people you attend games with stone cold sober? If they are I envy you. In previous seasons I've been on trains/ volunteered to drive mini-buses in which some of my group have failed to even make it to the match due to the alcohol intake either on the journey or in the pub before hand. Being able to buy a couple more pints inside the stadium will not suddenly turn every single fan into an Ultra. Some people sing, some people don't. A well design stadium with proper acoustics can help compensate for the latter. You are the one who brought up the ticket price issue. Until the club announce plans anything on this is pure speculation and to claim one side or the other in an argument is pointless. I'm not a psychic, structural engineer, or HSE Officer. I predict the moment will come when the price of keeping the stand open is more than the money the stand actually brings in. In the worst possible case the club lose all access to the Main Stand including offices, board room, Corporate boxes, changing rooms. Lose the facilities in the Main and the stadium could actually be shut down. Please refer to the start of this response Corporate can be anywhere but having it on your longest stands means more facilities No matter where you put it in a redeveloped pittodrie it will reduce the standard seating capacity. Remove it and the club loses a large chunk of revenue. Hearts suffer from their lack of corporate boxes and they have chosen not to put them in their new stand. May reduce construciton costs but it also reduces potential income. large scale sports stadiums are not the same as domestic houses. Go to Page 48 of this thread That document is a business strategy from almost a decade ago. It is not a feasibility study nor a detailed masterplan of the stadium and facilities There are also the advantages and disadvantages Advantages - Established destination for support - fair enough -Identified in Local Plan as an opportunity site for new stadium. - Local Plans change, Councils can re-zone land at any time, only stated as an 'opportunity'. Every large open site in the city of Aberdeen is an 'opportunity' until you make the first enquiry - Potential to act as a catalyst for community regeneration. - Potential is the key word in this one but why would a new stadium suddenly make Seaton a better place to live? Has the sports village suddenly made it more desirable? Disadvantages are: - - Constrained site – cannot accommodate Football Club’s requirements. - Little or no Community Use Opportunities - Greater risk in terms of ground conditions -Common Good question remains over land - Existing tenants will require compensation potentially making it unaffordable That's just the summary. Have a swatch at the SWOT analysis. Does anyone still want to push for the Kings Links site?

FYI 2015/16 - 38 Games 62 goals 2016/17 - 30 games 60 goals

Finished 1-1. Seemingly Motherwell were taking them to pieces and the Sevco keeper was taking them on by himself