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Scottish League Cup

Sunday 10 July 2022 - kick-off 3pm

Peterhead v Aberdeen

Stand Free!

Jim Goodwin


BigAl
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

I think it’s interesting so much emphasis is placed on a central defender who can play on the right but not on the left. Is it really that hard for a pro player?? Sad if so.

It's not that it's hard, it's just that it makes them 10-20% (or whatever) weaker as a player because they're playing on their weaker side (just like any professional sports player, like a boxer). Very few players in world football are equally comfortable on both sides. It's like playing a player only 80% fit. Is an 80% Bates really worth it? The evidence says no. It all depends on how the player plays the game though. Bates wants to come forward with the ball every time, and he does it on his strong side. McRorie was exactly the same and he was even worse when he played left centre (credit to Glass who spotted it and switched Gallagher there). Considine played right centre back for a while alongside McKenna and was absolutely fine because he could just come out with his body shape reversed on his wrong foot because he was going to take the conservative option of the short pass or the chip down the line (the percentage game) anyway. Watch Considine play against the Huns down at Ibrox at right centre half against Morelos and you wouldn't have known he was on his wrong side because 95% of his game was unaffected.The aggressive marking, strength in the air and strong tackling. He already knows not to let the player down the line as he's getting beaten for pace regardless of which side! I would have said that Gallagher is similar in that regard and should have been the one to switch sides. The reason he didn't was because when Bates joined the club he had to play alongside McRorie who was fucking honking on his wrong foot. When Gallagher came back in, nobody saw fit to change it. There'd have been very little affect on Gallagher's game on his wrong foot. It's not specific to Aberdeen either, clubs all over the world do exactly the same thing. Far bigger and better than Aberdeen. It's not sad in any way either, football is about the fine margins. If there's anything that weakens your team you fix it, unless the player is already 20% better than everyone else! There's probably not too many players playing on their weak side in top level football, who's strengths rely on ball play.

6 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

Anyway, as has been mentioned before, bates and Gallagher in a back 3 is probably their strength, and if/when we lose Ramsay maybe a strong investment in the left sided central defender to be the third part of the three?

I'd prefer a 3 too, I'm not sure Goodwin will though. I think he's like McInnes in that regard and has his preferred style and won't change unless forced (and then he'll stick with that change long after its stopped working!). I'd expect a 4-2-3-1, but maybe not. That said, you'd likely be changing at the expense of McRorie too, as I don't see him playing right wing back, and if we've not got a good replacement for Ferguson then we're screwed either way! I'd rather have McRorie in a back three and just ditch Gallagher. Other than a short spell in his career, he's not been good enough to merit changing the team around. Good as he was for Scotland, he doesn't add that much for a club side aiming to dominate possession and attack from the back.

6 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

in regards to my shit ahead of them, I think that’s a fair assessment. Who in midfield and forward this year should start next year?? Based on what I’ve seen, Barron is the only one is want assuming Ferguson is away, Ramirez plays too if he returns. The rest, including Vinny, are bang average at best. I just hope Vinny kicks on cos he is young to be fair. Even hayes is on the decline. We have a very large rebuild ahead. Goodwin has a close to impossible job ahead of him given he won’t last the season if he doesn’t get it right

We're explaining the deficiencies of this season, not next. Barron, Ferguson and Brown (the Brown of earlier this season) would probably all have started next season had they still been available. We've had a reasonably strong midfield two most of the season. Even McRorie will do a good job in there without troubling his own defence. I agree with you though when you move further forward. The shit stems from that attacking midfield (non existent for us, as you have mentioned on countless occasions!) onwards. The defence is being asked to not make a mistake for longer and longer in games because we've got zero creativity. They're then taking positional risks and dicking about on the ball causing the errors. I would say that most of our individual errors have stemmed from within the defence itself (Bates prominently) as opposed to from midfield, but a big portion of that is because they're trying to get involved in areas where they don't need to because of deficiencies further forward. That didn't happen often under McInnes because we were solid at the back first before risking anything further forward, hence our excellent clean sheet record (and boring 1-0 game management wins!). 

Edited by RicoS321
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3 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

Considine played right centre back for a while alongside McKenna and was absolutely fine because he could just come out with his body shape reversed on his wrong foot because he was going to take the conservative option of the short pass or the chip down the line (the percentage game) anyway. Watch Considine play against the Huns down at Ibrox at right centre half against Morelos and you wouldn't have known he was on his wrong side because 95% of his game was unaffected.

I’m not sure Considine is a good comparison….I might be wrong and getting him confused with someone else but is Considine not in fact right footed? 
We all assume he’s left footed but I’m sure there was something where Early in his Aberdeen career when it became apparent that he’d be getting deployed at LB or LCB, he made the decision himself to focus on playing everything in training and games on his left. 
hence he is comfortable on whatever side.

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48 minutes ago, sheepheid said:

I’m not sure Considine is a good comparison….I might be wrong and getting him confused with someone else but is Considine not in fact right footed? 
We all assume he’s left footed but I’m sure there was something where Early in his Aberdeen career when it became apparent that he’d be getting deployed at LB or LCB, he made the decision himself to focus on playing everything in training and games on his left. 
hence he is comfortable on whatever side.

You're maybe thinking McNaughton? Considine is definitely left footed. 

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4 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

I'd prefer a 3 too, I'm not sure Goodwin will though. I think he's like McInnes in that regard and has his preferred style and won't change unless forced (and then he'll stick with that change long after its stopped working!)

Well, actually, Goodwin started this season with three at the back at St Mirren.

They went on a poor run where I think it was 11 games without a win (although they did draw six of them, including against Celtic), so over the winter break Goodwin worked with the team on changing to two at the back.

They came back from the winter break, won six and drew one of their next seven games, including beating Aberdeen, Dundee United & Hibs, and then Goodwin got offered the Dons job.

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1 hour ago, Panda said:

Well, actually, Goodwin started this season with three at the back at St Mirren.

They went on a poor run where I think it was 11 games without a win (although they did draw six of them, including against Celtic), so over the winter break Goodwin worked with the team on changing to two at the back.

They came back from the winter break, won six and drew one of their next seven games, including beating Aberdeen, Dundee United & Hibs, and then Goodwin got offered the Dons job.

Yep, he did, that's why I added the bit about sticking with it. What I mean is that he'll pick a system and stick with it. He'll likely have learned that 3 at the back can have its weaknesses in the SPFL, and I think he'll not try it again for a while (unfortunately).

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Come on Rico, be fair. That's a hell of a biased book report.

We've had a shit season, Bates and Gallagher taking a ton of the blame. They are not faultless but blame should go to others too. Put an 'in their Aberdeen prime' Shinnie Jack McLean Hayes McGinn and Rooney ahead of them and I guarantee you see two very different defenders. I'd even argue would it be different if we'd had a legit and experienced left back rather than a rookie or converted 35 year old left winger?

It is sad. On paper we have two strong Scottish international central defenders. It's just not worked out to date, but for many reasons. We're meant to be one of the biggest clubs in Scotland, pro football, and our defenders can't play on the left. Not a real strong advert for the level of our team. Sad. No clue where you get your percentages from, you are making those up. You also way over sugarcoat and glamorize big Andy. He's a very limited defender too, has strengths but clear weaknesses too you ignore. Pretty certain a full season with Andy in there would not have been much different and he'd have taken abuse and criticism too. He way over commits and while you say he attacks everything and plays on the front foot, he has to because of his lack of pace and inability to recover. He's the high risk high reward guy. When faced with someone ball at feet in front of him, he's really poor and I used to cringe when he was at left back or caught 1v1. He needed a pacey Hayes at wing back or left mid to help him. 

As for the individual errors stemming from defense. They are dicking around on the ball most often because the options ahead of them are shit. Better players ahead of them providing better options means they have the ball less. Would you dick around knowing that giving the ball to Ojo is your only outlet?? We've had a terrible midfield this season. No width, central mids playing wide, an over the hill Brown making endless mistakes, and quite often multiple players playing the same role and getting in each others way. Very imbalanced. Then we blood Barron who, while he did well, is young and raw. We've really had no holding mid protecting your two central defenders. A strong holding mid does a hell of a protective job and quite often central defenders get exposed because of the lack of this player.....and I think we saw that.

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25 minutes ago, LA-Don said:

Come on Rico, be fair. That's a hell of a biased book report.

We've had a shit season, Bates and Gallagher taking a ton of the blame. They are not faultless but blame should go to others too. Put an 'in their Aberdeen prime' Shinnie Jack McLean Hayes McGinn and Rooney ahead of them and I guarantee you see two very different defenders. I'd even argue would it be different if we'd had a legit and experienced left back rather than a rookie or converted 35 year old left winger?

It is sad. On paper we have two strong Scottish international central defenders. It's just not worked out to date, but for many reasons. We're meant to be one of the biggest clubs in Scotland, pro football, and our defenders can't play on the left. Not a real strong advert for the level of our team. Sad. No clue where you get your percentages from, you are making those up. You also way over sugarcoat and glamorize big Andy. He's a very limited defender too, has strengths but clear weaknesses too you ignore. Pretty certain a full season with Andy in there would not have been much different and he'd have taken abuse and criticism too. He way over commits and while you say he attacks everything and plays on the front foot, he has to because of his lack of pace and inability to recover. He's the high risk high reward guy. When faced with someone ball at feet in front of him, he's really poor and I used to cringe when he was at left back or caught 1v1. He needed a pacey Hayes at wing back or left mid to help him. 

As for the individual errors stemming from defense. They are dicking around on the ball most often because the options ahead of them are shit. Better players ahead of them providing better options means they have the ball less. Would you dick around knowing that giving the ball to Ojo is your only outlet?? We've had a terrible midfield this season. No width, central mids playing wide, an over the hill Brown making endless mistakes, and quite often multiple players playing the same role and getting in each others way. Very imbalanced. Then we blood Barron who, while he did well, is young and raw. We've really had no holding mid protecting your two central defenders. A strong holding mid does a hell of a protective job and quite often central defenders get exposed because of the lack of this player.....and I think we saw that.

 Okay. You're probably in a minority of one who believes that there is nothing wrong with the pairing of Bates and Gallagher. I'm not for a minute suggesting that others haven't collaborated in our downfall (I specifically said otherwise), and I was purely using Considine and the percentages as an illustrative example - I thought that was fairly obvious. I think I've been fairly diplomatic about it, if you sat near me and heard the abuse that the pair get at pittodrie you'd think I was being too conservative! "Bring back Ifil and Bus" was shouted at one point. That's the level people see these two at, and it's not surprising given our worst finish in 18 years. I think the biggest problem for fans in the ground is that they're just so passive whilst they're fucking things up. It's certainly the worst pairing we've had since McGhee was here. Diamond and Ifil perhaps? 

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1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

 Okay. You're probably in a minority of one who believes that there is nothing wrong with the pairing of Bates and Gallagher. I'm not for a minute suggesting that others haven't collaborated in our downfall (I specifically said otherwise), and I was purely using Considine and the percentages as an illustrative example - I thought that was fairly obvious. I think I've been fairly diplomatic about it, if you sat near me and heard the abuse that the pair get at pittodrie you'd think I was being too conservative! "Bring back Ifil and Bus" was shouted at one point. That's the level people see these two at, and it's not surprising given our worst finish in 18 years. I think the biggest problem for fans in the ground is that they're just so passive whilst they're fucking things up. It's certainly the worst pairing we've had since McGhee was here. Diamond and Ifil perhaps? 

I think my first sentence says they weren't faultless, but blame should go to others too. I'm not saying there is nothing wrong with them as you can clearly see, but you can't deny that if we were better in midfield and forward there would be less defending and less pressure on them. We'd also be winning games if we were better in mid/forward, and that breeds confidence all over the park. It's like kids always blaming the keeper when a goal is scored, it's an easy out. Dig deeper.

It's the same situation with Joe Lewis, the fans are critical of him when he's been under way more pressure this year. While I do feel Joe has not had a good season, mistakes come when there is increased pressure and confidence is low, it's just defenders and the keeper's mistakes result in goals, when the entire team has been piss for the most part.

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10 hours ago, LA-Don said:

I think my first sentence says they weren't faultless, but blame should go to others too. I'm not saying there is nothing wrong with them as you can clearly see, but you can't deny that if we were better in midfield and forward there would be less defending and less pressure on them. We'd also be winning games if we were better in mid/forward, and that breeds confidence all over the park. It's like kids always blaming the keeper when a goal is scored, it's an easy out. Dig deeper.

You're right, I can't deny that if we were better in midfield and forward there would be less defending and less pressure. That's why I've said so in every reply. 

You're initial point was that you think that Bates and Gallagher would be a fine pairing for next season (that's the point I've been arguing against until now for avoidance of doubt). I'm saying that there are fundamental issues with that pairing that would suggest otherwise; and lots of them. Putting better midfielders (which I've suggested we might struggle to get better than Ferguson, Brown, McRorie and Barron) might paper over a few cracks. If we get a good front line, we might even score more than we concede. The evidence is fairly overwhelming that they've been terrible as a partnership though, you're definitely the one with the controversial opinion here, in case you're in any doubt! Lastly, I doubt anyone would accuse me, ever, of not digging deeper to make a point!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Haven't done a comprehensive search, but think it was only covered in Next Manager.  So have started a thread.

I'm only 1/3 of the way through, but this is a good watch so far (despite the sans sock situation).  

 

 

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  • manc_don changed the title to Jim Goodwin
22 minutes ago, manc_don said:

Haven't done a comprehensive search, but think it was only covered in Next Manager.  So have started a thread.

I'm only 1/3 of the way through, but this is a good watch so far (despite the sans sock situation).  

 

 

Lazy work Manc, it is still.on the first page 😵

Get it sorted min 😂

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I don’t know what’s worse a MOD not being able to work the search facility or fact that another one was to busy laughing at the first one to merge the threads. 

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13 hours ago, BigAl said:

Lazy work Manc, it is still.on the first page 😵

Get it sorted min 😂

 

4 hours ago, Jute said:

I don’t know what’s worse a MOD not being able to work the search facility or fact that another one was to busy laughing at the first one to merge the threads. 

Gave Manc the opportunity to sort his fuck up, but you've outed him there Jute 😂

Anyway, sorted now

Abody happy 😉 

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