Author Topic: 4th place??  (Read 950 times)

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Offline sancho_panza

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2020, 01:46:43 AM »
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Surely there are meaningless games in England, Germany and Spain every year but I don't see much clamour there to go down to 10 or 12 teams.

There are meaningless games in every setup (7th place gets five meaningless games after the split right now) but it's nowhere near the same scale. Look at the Premier League table right now in England - every team down to about 12th is probably within touching distance of a European spot with 9 games to go. Obviously a bunch of teams will end up in the middle regardless but it's the possibility of moving up the legue that keeps the interest. Drawing a line across the table in January and telling maybe a third of the league to go play for nothing for over three months just seems completely mental from an entertainment perspective. The only reason it's being proposed as far as I can see is we want league expansion but don't want to be too radical about it, but that's the worst of all worlds.

It's also a sideshow because as you said, the biggest problem in Scottish football is the lack of competitiveness and you can only solve that with something radical like your NFL draft system/salary cap idea. That would be a progressive idea - a 14 team league is just a worse version of what we already have.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2020, 08:46:34 AM »
Now that the debate has moved on to league reconstruction, there are always going to be "dead rubbers". I guess the less of them the better, thus the introduction of the split. I'm of the old school where each team plays each other twice but I can understand that the inability to exercise delayed gratification and the need to attract the modern crowds means that the split is a good idea.

I'm not sure what the plans are going forward but the current set-up is probably as good as it gets? Only 5 post-split fixtures would be better than 12 but I still think that playing every team twice is best so why not a 18 or 20 team SPFL? Are we saying that we don't have enough depth in quality that the bottom 6, 8 or 10 would get hammered all the time? I don't think so.
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Online RicoS321

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2020, 09:07:43 AM »
Only 5 post-split fixtures would be better than 12 but I still think that playing every team twice is best so why not a 18 or 20 team SPFL? Are we saying that we don't have enough depth in quality that the bottom 6, 8 or 10 would get hammered all the time? I don't think so.

The reason I think 16 would be better is because I don't think we have the depth for 18. I think that we have 18 capable teams, but the need for a competitive full time (where possible) second division in order to make relegation and promotion viable would maybe be stretching the 18 at present in my opinion. I also think that 16 makes the season more compact and exciting. The 30 games we just had was perfect for me, and we could ditch several of the unnecessary midweek winter night fixtures too. The league format of the early cup rounds satisfies the need for more games and they could even have relegation and European spot playoffs at Hampden to add more games (split gate receipts for those games between all teams in the league). I think 16 is as near perfect as it gets for Scottish fitba in terms of the sport. But I'd be happy with 18 too. Or 42, play each other once.

Offline Elgindon

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2020, 10:45:48 AM »
Now that the debate has moved on to league reconstruction, there are always going to be "dead rubbers". I guess the less of them the better, thus the introduction of the split. I'm of the old school where each team plays each other twice but I can understand that the inability to exercise delayed gratification and the need to attract the modern crowds means that the split is a good idea.

I'm not sure what the plans are going forward but the current set-up is probably as good as it gets? Only 5 post-split fixtures would be better than 12 but I still think that playing every team twice is best so why not a 18 or 20 team SPFL? Are we saying that we don't have enough depth in quality that the bottom 6, 8 or 10 would get hammered all the time? I don't think so.

  If there are no clear winners in the reconstruction argument,I think what weve got isn't far off as good as we can do,if we want to avoid confusing things again.Can see the argument for a bigger league,but anything over 16 would probably end up in the same problem we had in the 70s,too many meaningless games,maybe that's me being selfish and not in a hurry to watch Dons v Ayr.The counter argument to that was a bigger league was beneficial for the National team because more clubs weren't frightened to blood their own players due to the lack of threat of relegation.
  Getting the power away from the Deadly duo would be a better focus

Offline puregenius

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2020, 12:09:45 PM »
I love the current system.  Many outsiders seem to mock the split but every season there is something to play for right up to the last game. 

I cannot see how a 14 team league can ever work to get back to 38 games. 
1. Do you split the league and if so, when?
2. What happens after the split?

Cash is king and having meaningless games just means lower crowds and less ticket sales for games at the end of the season.  In the current system the gates at the end of the season are often very good as there can be so much to play for.  Also unless every team is guaranteed at least 19 home games change will never happen. 



Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2020, 12:30:37 PM »
Or 42, play each other once.

Brilliant.

I don't think it will catch on though because we can't go home AND away to each team.

But excellent thinking outside the penalty box. I would love to see my Cove v AFC. Can't stand either manager right enough but Cove are more than good enough to surprise folk. A win at Ibrox would be dream-like.
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Offline DantheDon

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2020, 03:36:54 PM »
You don't need to sell a revolution based on sporting fairness to me. Personally I'd go full NFL, with youth development delegated to around 6-8 regions of the country and draft allocations once players reach 21, salary caps, all transfer fees from players sold to foreign leagues centralised and reinvested in facilities etc.

Ideologically that sounds nice but I can't see it working due to competition for players from the leagues down south. I don't know how the NFL draft works exactly so if I've got it totally wrong please correct me. But if your a promising Scottish youngster and you have the option to go into a draft system where you could shine and yet end up playing for Hamilton or you got the option to join a mid sized championship club I'd imagine you'd take the latter. I presume it works in the NFL because there are no other competing leagues and because every club there is of a decent size.

Offline tom_widdows

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2020, 05:25:30 PM »
Ideologically that sounds nice but I can't see it working due to competition for players from the leagues down south. I don't know how the NFL draft works exactly so if I've got it totally wrong please correct me. But if your a promising Scottish youngster and you have the option to go into a draft system where you could shine and yet end up playing for Hamilton or you got the option to join a mid sized championship club I'd imagine you'd take the latter. I presume it works in the NFL because there are no other competing leagues and because every club there is of a decent size.

School and University (NCAA) sports play a massive part in how the draft works.
Some NCAA games get bigger crowds than the NFL.

Uni's make a lot of money out of it meaning it is in their interest to give scholarships to kids who would never get there based on their academic abilities. The additional advantage is while at Uni effectively being a professional sportsman you are getting a qualification which you can fall back on should the sports thing not work out.

Now lets have a look at the school and Uni sports situation in Scotland (or even the UK as a whole).  :tumbleweed:

I'm a man, and as a man I crave disappointment.

That's why I support Aberdeen Football Club & Scotland.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2020, 07:09:32 PM »
Now lets have a look at the school and Uni sports situation in Scotland (or even the UK as a whole).  :tumbleweed:

I have NCAA clients so I know how it works out there but we can't diss every European uni in every sport. For example, Stirling University are reigning European Champions in golf. Not only that, the men's team have won the last 4 or 5 and their women's team have won the last 3 out of 4 or possibly 4 out of 5, no mean feat given that the tournament is held every two years and so they're winning with totally different personnel. They had 4 golfers in the top 100 of the World Amateur Golf Rankings and contributed two golfers to the Walker Cup the second last time at home so they're clearly doing a lot right. The best UK pro woman golfer may well come out of that uni when she graduates in a couple of years time, a hugely talented young Scot.
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Offline wee toon red

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2020, 02:35:27 PM »
Ideologically that sounds nice but I can't see it working due to competition for players from the leagues down south. I don't know how the NFL draft works exactly so if I've got it totally wrong please correct me. But if your a promising Scottish youngster and you have the option to go into a draft system where you could shine and yet end up playing for Hamilton or you got the option to join a mid sized championship club I'd imagine you'd take the latter. I presume it works in the NFL because there are no other competing leagues and because every club there is of a decent size.

I don't disagree at all but if the cream of the crop end up going down south then so be it, it just makes room for other players to come through. I think at first we'd see exactly what you've suggested but over time, if the system works, players would be quite happy to spend a couple of years of guaranteed playing time whether it's with Hamilton or whoever and then move on, especially if they get paid the same at Hamilton as Celtic or whatever.
Can you blame the man for going out of his mind temporarily?

Offline tom_widdows

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2020, 04:39:04 PM »
As far as I'm aware a big aspect of the draft system is to ensure the top teams do not just take all of the best players and therefore just keep winning
The team which gets first pick in the draft is the one which finished last/ bottom of the table whilst the team which finished first is the last to pick.

For that to actually work you need to serious level the financial playing field and also completely revamp the league to ensure each team is made up of mainly 'home' players - One of the claims as to why the scotland national team is so bad is the best young scottish players are hoovered up by the Tic & Sevco and then left to rot in the youth and reserve teams before eventually getting let go. Some might carve out a career in the lower leagues but many end up quitting.
I'm a man, and as a man I crave disappointment.

That's why I support Aberdeen Football Club & Scotland.

Offline SeeBass

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2020, 06:05:15 PM »
See in terms of European football.  Does this quarantine thing mean clubs would have to be in some other country a fortnight before their away leg??

Offline wee toon red

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2020, 03:29:24 PM »
Can you blame the man for going out of his mind temporarily?

Offline manc_don

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 12:28:40 AM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52797428

Strachan not messing about.

A lot of what he says is true.  We all know that there are too many pro clubs in Scotland. A lot of them are well run mind, but something needs to change. Easy for me to say, given that our club isn't one that really needs to change. Although his use of county was out of order. Great professional community club. They have had a well run academy.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 02:50:29 AM »
100% of what Strachan said there was true. Respect.

Here's another true statement.

Strachan was an infuriating footballer and employee.

Ferguson found this. And he was right.

Wee Gordon was one of many who had problems with SAF.

And there's no smoke without fire.

SAF was right then and the bitter ging er is right now.

Swings. Roundabouts. Stop and go.
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Offline puregenius

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 09:41:37 AM »
Some of it is also very contradictory.  "All that happens is Celtic and Rangers get stronger", yet he does not want to watch Livingston v Ross County on TV. 

"If they can't deal with it financially, then they can go and play in the junior leagues".  That coming from a man employed by DUNDEE???  Did he miss their period of administration?

"Two hundred people a week to a game, is that really professional football?"  Is he suggesting we introduce a minimum crowd level now or clubs cannot take part?

Also cannot remember him complaining about the old firm getting stronger when he was managing Celtic? Funny that.

Remarkable how our top clubs complain about the Champions League's biggest clubs wanting a closed shop but in reality that is exactly what they all want in Scotland.  A top division with all the "biggest" clubs and no risk of any of them being relegated.  But with sporting integrity included, of course.
 

Offline Elgindon

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #36 on: Yesterday at 10:23:20 AM »
Some of it is also very contradictory.  "All that happens is Celtic and Rangers get stronger", yet he does not want to watch Livingston v Ross County on TV. 

"If they can't deal with it financially, then they can go and play in the junior leagues".  That coming from a man employed by DUNDEE???  Did he miss their period of administration?

"Two hundred people a week to a game, is that really professional football?"  Is he suggesting we introduce a minimum crowd level now or clubs cannot take part?

Also cannot remember him complaining about the old firm getting stronger when he was managing Celtic? Funny that.

Remarkable how our top clubs complain about the Champions League's biggest clubs wanting a closed shop but in reality that is exactly what they all want in Scotland.  A top division with all the "biggest" clubs and no risk of any of them being relegated.  But with sporting integrity included, of course.
 
Agree with the above. If some club with 200 fans runs their affairs well enough to be solvent,and gain promotion then they deserve to be there,(though I'd rather be doing battle againsts club similar size to ourselves like),but generally speaking,tough tits if you canna run your affairs properly,fairs fair at both ends of the spectrum
 In the SPL case the power has shifted so far in the Duopoly favour,I would rather some sort of amnesty between the clubs in the top league and restructure/level the playing field,if not tell the OF to do one(preferred). We hold the aces if we'd just show some balls,(or self belief).I don't understand why weve accepted our fate without a fight for so long
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 07:59:42 PM by Elgindon »

Offline DantheDon

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #37 on: Yesterday at 12:46:44 PM »
Part of the problem with Scottish Football is that most fans don't want to support there local team. They usually choose one of the old firm and it has a detrimental impact on the smaller clubs. Even up here the amount of locals that support Rangers, if they supported Aberdeen you would think our attendances would be better.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 09:20:15 PM »
42 clubs for a country our size would be too many at the top of the game but given that there are thousands of clubs all over the UK, it's not a problem to have this many in the bigger spotlight. England have 92 clubs in four divisions as their recognised top flights so 28 teams in our top two divisions seems like a logical extension, with a third division providing promotion and relegation to and from both division 2 and below that e.g. Edinburgh City and Cove Aberdeen and before that ICT and Ross County.

Given that we only have 22 full-time professional clubs, the second division would have roughly half full time and half part time but it's up to them how ambitious they are to progress and they have to be good enough to stay in that division and not slide into obscurity.

The bigger issue is the development and management of our game in Scotland. It's not been working for a very long time and change is well overdue.
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Online RicoS321

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Re: 4th place??
« Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 11:34:41 PM »
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/sport/football/separate-league-full-time-clubs-says-strachan-1577947%3famp

At least Strachan is consistent! Shows how far we haven't come anyway. I have a lot of sympathy for the full/part time issue, I'd have hoped that we could muster 26-28 teams of full timers but it's maybe a stretch. However the notion that teams who have a wealthier benefactor (and I'd question where he got his facts on Milne) should have a greater say is pathetic at best.