Kilmarnock v Aberdeen

[2stars]

17 minutes ago, dons8321 said:

Just back...well 3 swift pints back.  That was beyond abysmal...we could have been down by 4 at h-t. 

The players and all coaches should be offering to reimburse every ticket paid by the fans who were there today

whether they travelled 15 minutes like Big Al or from Aberdeen is the least they should do

truly abysmal

Edited Saturday at 22:06 by 2stars

[Kowalski]

I think any Dons fan that travelled a minimum of 16 minutes to the game should be fully reimbursed by the club. 

[OxfordDon]

On the plus side, I got my tax return done before full time.

[TheDonbytheDee]

12 hours ago, manc_don said:

Sadly, you were right. I had the fear but chose to stupidly ignore it after the last result.

I did have the fear about yesterday, we've read the script many times.

A team can't buy a win, then along come Aberdeen.

Even more gut wrenching, was knowing that two hun bastards, in the Killie dugout, with shit managerial records, help see us off.

[redordead]

Didn't see it at the time.  Watched the highlights this morning.  I dint think we had any chances on there.

No complaint about the red from me. He has raked the leg ( accidentally id say ) but it's defo a yellow at best and he was on one already.

I've said it before. The mindset within the club seems to be the barrier here.  We've changed coaches,  we've changed a lot of the staff. 

It's time for a clean sweep.  New man, new coaches. New skipper and let them stamp their authority on things because it seems to me that mediocrity is accepted and it's clear that training isn't at the intensity needed because we're soft as shit.

[THFN1983]

Said it before and it bears repeating, there is absolutely zero pressure on the players to succeed at AFC. They just meander through their contract with us knowing that there is no real hunger to bring home silverware.

We, the fanbase, believe our team should be challenging for trophies but it appears that isn't the culture within the walls at Aberdeen which seems to be more about any victories being a happy accident than through hard graft and determination. Lets be honest, the media certainly doesn't help our case as any time a supporter pipes up about where we should be as a club then we're labelled as being stuck in the 80's etc.

There needs to be a complete overhaul of the ecosystem starting with shipping out players that have been named consistently by supporters over the years. Regardless of how these players perform and the results that accompany those performances they remain with the club and are selected time after time after time.

Hopefully when this new manager comes in it will signal an end to this dire situation we're in and we can actually look forward to players really caring about the club, demanding success and driving the teams performances through their own.

 

[RicoS321]

2 hours ago, THFN1983 said:

Said it before and it bears repeating, there is absolutely zero pressure on the players to succeed at AFC. They just meander through their contract with us knowing that there is no real hunger to bring home silverware.

We, the fanbase, believe our team should be challenging for trophies but it appears that isn't the culture within the walls at Aberdeen which seems to be more about any victories being a happy accident than through hard graft and determination. Lets be honest, the media certainly doesn't help our case as any time a supporter pipes up about where we should be as a club then we're labelled as being stuck in the 80's etc.

There needs to be a complete overhaul of the ecosystem starting with shipping out players that have been named consistently by supporters over the years. Regardless of how these players perform and the results that accompany those performances they remain with the club and are selected time after time after time.

Hopefully when this new manager comes in it will signal an end to this dire situation we're in and we can actually look forward to players really caring about the club, demanding success and driving the teams performances through their own.

 

I don't think there'll be a football player on the planet that would agree with this to be honest. The notion that our players, or any professional footballer (unless they're really good), doesn't feel the pressure to perform is ludicrous. It would suggest a mental health issue if they didn't! These are guys who have worked their arses off from a very young age to make it to where they are (think how difficult it is to become a professional footballer, and how many kids fail), and guys at Aberdeen who will never make enough money to live a life of luxury. You might get the odd player who is disillusioned with a particular club or role, or is maybe seeing out a career, but it doesn't bridge an entire squad.

Our club just sacked its cup winning manager for his failures (correctly). If there wasn't pressure to succeed then he'd still be here. The players will have felt it when he was binned as he was clearly a likeable guy, just as they'll hear the boos around Pittodrie and away from home. Of course they feel the pressure of that. 

The performances and results can very easily be explained by the atrocious errors in the transfer market, the imbalance of the squad, poor tactics and very low confidence. It doesn't need other explanation. 

[Panda]

21 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

I don't think there'll be a football player on the planet that would agree with this to be honest. The notion that our players, or any professional footballer (unless they're really good), doesn't feel the pressure to perform is ludicrous. It would suggest a mental health issue if they didn't! These are guys who have worked their arses off from a very young age to make it to where they are (think how difficult it is to become a professional footballer, and how many kids fail), and guys at Aberdeen who will never make enough money to live a life of luxury. You might get the odd player who is disillusioned with a particular club or role, or is maybe seeing out a career, but it doesn't bridge an entire squad.

Our club just sacked its cup winning manager for his failures (correctly). If there wasn't pressure to succeed then he'd still be here. The players will have felt it when he was binned as he was clearly a likeable guy, just as they'll hear the boos around Pittodrie and away from home. Of course they feel the pressure of that. 

The performances and results can very easily be explained by the atrocious errors in the transfer market, the imbalance of the squad, poor tactics and very low confidence. It doesn't need other explanation. 

Lutz (and Leven) have both come out recently and criticised the lack of work rate and accountability from players. While many of your points are true, I think there's definitely been an element of coasting from many players. And I'm not convinced the pressure to perform is as high as it should be.

[THFN1983]

31 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

I don't think there'll be a football player on the planet that would agree with this to be honest. The notion that our players, or any professional footballer (unless they're really good), doesn't feel the pressure to perform is ludicrous. It would suggest a mental health issue if they didn't! These are guys who have worked their arses off from a very young age to make it to where they are (think how difficult it is to become a professional footballer, and how many kids fail), and guys at Aberdeen who will never make enough money to live a life of luxury. You might get the odd player who is disillusioned with a particular club or role, or is maybe seeing out a career, but it doesn't bridge an entire squad.

Our club just sacked its cup winning manager for his failures (correctly). If there wasn't pressure to succeed then he'd still be here. The players will have felt it when he was binned as he was clearly a likeable guy, just as they'll hear the boos around Pittodrie and away from home. Of course they feel the pressure of that. 

The performances and results can very easily be explained by the atrocious errors in the transfer market, the imbalance of the squad, poor tactics and very low confidence. It doesn't need other explanation. 

Lets look at it this way. How many players over the years have we signed that actually improved since they came to us and how many have regressed? I'd wager there's far more that went backwards than progressed. You only have to look at the amount of players that we literally paid off to get them off our books. Of course you'll get players like Ferguson, Miovski etc. but they are more outliers than the rule.

We've had several managers come out now and say that players were actively avoiding the ball and turning away from receiving a pass and I'm pretty sure that wasn't their mentality when they signed for us. It can't all be down to the coaching as different coaching teams have had these players to work with but still the same problems arise with application, work rate, accountability on the park.

You can state as fact how professional players feel and scoff at my suggestion but we can only gauge them on what we see and frankly what we are seeing and have been watching for many years now are a core group of players that sign for us with big words coming from their mouths but when the going gets tough they are nowhere to be found and they remain with us further for a couple of years until they sign for a lower level team than ourselves.

[THFN1983]

Just now, THFN1983 said:

Lets look at it this way. How many players over the years have we signed that actually improved since they came to us and how many have regressed? I'd wager there's far more that went backwards than progressed. You only have to look at the amount of players that we literally paid off to get them off our books. Of course you'll get players like Ferguson, Miovski etc. but they are more outliers than the rule.

We've had several managers come out now and say that players were actively avoiding the ball and turning away from receiving a pass and I'm pretty sure that wasn't their mentality when they signed for us. It can't all be down to the coaching as different coaching teams have had these players to work with but still the same problems arise with application, work rate, accountability on the park.

You can state as fact how professional players feel and scoff at my suggestion but we can only gauge them on what we see and frankly what we are seeing and have been watching for many years now are a core group of players that sign for us with big words coming from their mouths but when the going gets tough they are nowhere to be found and they remain with us further for a couple of years until they sign for a lower level team than ourselves.

To add, if it was as easy to pay off players as it is with managers then do you honestly believe that a large amount of these current players wouldn't have got their jotters before Jimmy did? Jimmy ultimately went because it is far simpler to bin him than 6 players who Jimmy most likely identified as being shirkers but couldn't do much about.

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, THFN1983 said:

Lets look at it this way. How many players over the years have we signed that actually improved since they came to us and how many have regressed? I'd wager there's far more that went backwards than progressed. You only have to look at the amount of players that we literally paid off to get them off our books. Of course you'll get players like Ferguson, Miovski etc. but they are more outliers than the rule.

We've had several managers come out now and say that players were actively avoiding the ball and turning away from receiving a pass and I'm pretty sure that wasn't their mentality when they signed for us. It can't all be down to the coaching as different coaching teams have had these players to work with but still the same problems arise with application, work rate, accountability on the park.

You can state as fact how professional players feel and scoff at my suggestion but we can only gauge them on what we see and frankly what we are seeing and have been watching for many years now are a core group of players that sign for us with big words coming from their mouths but when the going gets tough they are nowhere to be found and they remain with us further for a couple of years until they sign for a lower level team than ourselves.

I don't think any of those things has anything to do with lack of pressure. 

[THFN1983]

3 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

I don't think any of those things has anything to do with lack of pressure. 

When there's no pressure to improve in any job then you'll find yourself going through the motions and not applying yourself as hard as you can do. I think that can be levelled against our current crop and certainly some past players also.

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, Panda said:

Lutz (and Leven) have both come out recently and criticised the lack of work rate and accountability from players. While many of your points are true, I think there's definitely been an element of coasting from many players. And I'm not convinced the pressure to perform is as high as it should be.

Right, but what has that to do with lack of pressure? Both Lutz and Leven would be responsible for putting pressure on players to perform, wouldn't they? Are they suggesting that they don't do that enough? I've seen plenty of performances where the players have looked disillusioned and confused, probably even dejected. I've also come away from many games this season thinking that many of the players have worked their arses off and come away with nothing due to ridiculous errors and terrible tactics. Their confidence looks battered, and the stupidly imbalanced squad means that they aren't good enough to get themselves out of the hole they're in. I've seen players like Shinnie, Aouchiche, Devlin and even Jensen being hung out to dry by the inability of their managers to see that who they are being paired with, or what they're being asked to do is wildly beyond them, when other more appropriate combinations would have worked. We haven't seen a midfield three of Shinnie, Aouchiche and Clarkson once this season for example. Two midfielders that work their arses off, and one who can spray passes about for fun. We've seen Armstrong continually expected to play as a number 8 when he is pish there. No amount of pressure is going to turn Armstrong into a box to box midfielder, just as didn't for Jamie McGrath when we made the exact same mistake with him under Robson (lo and behold, when we played him in his correct fucking position, the mysterious pressure evaporated and he was one of our best players again). 

But it's fine, we can put it down to some nebulous theory of "not enough pressure", that can never be proved either way, and in reality none of us have the slightest clue as to what happens behind closed doors, or the thinking behind it. 

[RicoS321]

8 minutes ago, THFN1983 said:

When there's no pressure to improve in any job then you'll find yourself going through the motions and not applying yourself as hard as you can do. I think that can be levelled against our current crop and certainly some past players also.

I guess that's a fairly meaningless statement without any possible guage. You could just as easily say that if you are under too much pressure to perform (expectations are too high) then you could can let things get to you and struggle to perform. I'm not saying that there is too much pressure, just pointing out that it's impossible to tell. Why not stick to any one of the things that we can see with our eyes on the pitch? Such as players not being very good, or playing out of position? Would you genuinely say that "pressure to improve" has a bearing on Yengi, Ambrose, Milanovic? Or are they just pish? I thought Milanovic worked very hard in his last start for us and was actually quite diligent in tracking his man. He was fucking honking at playing football though, and I don't think you can pressure him into being otherwise. Armstrong isn't going to be pressured into not giving the ball away or losing his position in a deeper area, that's what he does in his attempt to try and create something, so you play him further forward. And so on.

[Panda]

29 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Right, but what has that to do with lack of pressure? Both Lutz and Leven would be responsible for putting pressure on players to perform, wouldn't they?

Post Thelin, yes, but for the past 12 months, no.

I think Lutz comments that he wants a manager that needs to "reflect a certain emotion and a certain fire, which I think is extremely important to get this team going and get the players behind you" was some acknowledgement that he doesn't feel the correct standards have been set.

 

[THFN1983]

44 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

I guess that's a fairly meaningless statement without any possible guage. You could just as easily say that if you are under too much pressure to perform (expectations are too high) then you could can let things get to you and struggle to perform. I'm not saying that there is too much pressure, just pointing out that it's impossible to tell. Why not stick to any one of the things that we can see with our eyes on the pitch? Such as players not being very good, or playing out of position? Would you genuinely say that "pressure to improve" has a bearing on Yengi, Ambrose, Milanovic? Or are they just pish? I thought Milanovic worked very hard in his last start for us and was actually quite diligent in tracking his man. He was fucking honking at playing football though, and I don't think you can pressure him into being otherwise. Armstrong isn't going to be pressured into not giving the ball away or losing his position in a deeper area, that's what he does in his attempt to try and create something, so you play him further forward. And so on.

I think if the pressure is really on then you can be guilty of trying too hard which is actually detrimental to the overall impact. Leven and others have said that players have been guilty of turning away from the ball and hiding, that doesn't suggest that the players have increased their intensity to match up to the pressure in my opinion. Let's just agree to disagree eh? I feel the players haven't realised the expectations of the supporters of playing for a club such as AFC for a very long time now, they've been great with soundbites but for delivering on the pitch they've been found wanting time and time again. That a lot of these very same players have been kept on and in some cases had their contracts extended speaks volumes about what the expectations of the management and above are.

[OrlandoDon]

2 hours ago, THFN1983 said:

Lets look at it this way. How many players over the years have we signed that actually improved since they came to us and how many have regressed? I'd wager there's far more that went backwards than progressed. You only have to look at the amount of players that we literally paid off to get them off our books. Of course you'll get players like Ferguson, Miovski etc. but they are more outliers than the rule.

We've had several managers come out now and say that players were actively avoiding the ball and turning away from receiving a pass and I'm pretty sure that wasn't their mentality when they signed for us. It can't all be down to the coaching as different coaching teams have had these players to work with but still the same problems arise with application, work rate, accountability on the park.

You can state as fact how professional players feel and scoff at my suggestion but we can only gauge them on what we see and frankly what we are seeing and have been watching for many years now are a core group of players that sign for us with big words coming from their mouths but when the going gets tough they are nowhere to be found and they remain with us further for a couple of years until they sign for a lower level team than ourselves.

Your middle point about players avoiding the ball is most likely pressure. The fear of making a mistake in a high pressure environment. I think the players do care. Football is all about pressure, and the ability to handle it and perform in front of thousands is screaming fans. There are plenty of very good players who don’t make it because of that exact pressure. The ultimate pressure is a penalty shootout, and i look at Polvara and palaversa, two who ultimately failed here, they stood up while under extreme  pressure. That’s impressive. It’s not because of pressure that they failed with us.

to me I think you maybe mean accountability. Players playing regardless of the level of performance. That’s down to a manager, it’s his job to get players motivated enough and prepared enough to perform at a high level. And fave consequences if they don’t. Fergie was the master at that. plus they feared him, and he scared them into performing, the fear of fergie’s wrath if they under achieved.
Good managers are so hard to find, plus it has to be the perfect squad blend for all pieces to fall into place. A lot of that is luck. Managers like Mcinnes fell into a great situation with us, McLean Hayes Lewis Logan Rooney McGinnis jack mckenna and others, most in their prime. They all fit together and clicked under mcinnes, and then mcinnes couldn’t replicate it when the squad changed.

we haven’t had the ideal squad or ‘perfect’ manager to make the most of a situation for getting close to maybe 8-9 years. Jimmy was far too nice, I do think the players have to fear letting the manager down, and jimmy killed himself with endless squad rotations too. We had a poor preseason, added players once the league started, and never really got a system in place to gel. Poor performances led to the 3-5-2 ish or at least 3 at the back, but it was still square peg round hole with a manager incapable of piecing every thing together and sufficiently teaching and motivating.

very little stability right now, no manager, and no core players, no true long term Aberdeen players to build a team around. We’re also a team full of followers with very few leaders. We’re an extremely flawed team right now for various reasons, but I don’t think it’s because of pressure or players lacking drive.

 

[THFN1983]

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

Right, but what has that to do with lack of pressure? Both Lutz and Leven would be responsible for putting pressure on players to perform, wouldn't they? Are they suggesting that they don't do that enough? I've seen plenty of performances where the players have looked disillusioned and confused, probably even dejected. I've also come away from many games this season thinking that many of the players have worked their arses off and come away with nothing due to ridiculous errors and terrible tactics. Their confidence looks battered, and the stupidly imbalanced squad means that they aren't good enough to get themselves out of the hole they're in. I've seen players like Shinnie, Aouchiche, Devlin and even Jensen being hung out to dry by the inability of their managers to see that who they are being paired with, or what they're being asked to do is wildly beyond them, when other more appropriate combinations would have worked. We haven't seen a midfield three of Shinnie, Aouchiche and Clarkson once this season for example. Two midfielders that work their arses off, and one who can spray passes about for fun. We've seen Armstrong continually expected to play as a number 8 when he is pish there. No amount of pressure is going to turn Armstrong into a box to box midfielder, just as didn't for Jamie McGrath when we made the exact same mistake with him under Robson (lo and behold, when we played him in his correct fucking position, the mysterious pressure evaporated and he was one of our best players again). 

But it's fine, we can put it down to some nebulous theory of "not enough pressure", that can never be proved either way, and in reality none of us have the slightest clue as to what happens behind closed doors, or the thinking behind it. 

Think you need to go for a wee calm down period perhaps? Or are you one of these posters that HAS to be correct and for any naysayers who have a different opinion to bow to your apparent superior insights??

 

As I said previously, let's just agree to disagree eh? The fact that others have liked my post suggests there's some validity to what I'm suggesting and that it's my opinion and no matter of sweary words typed by you will dissuade me of that.

 

I genuinely feel that there isn't enough pressure put on the players by those above them and as such they have been allowed to put in performances like Killie time and time again with no apparent consequences. You don't subscribe to that and that's fine but take a chill pill before posting as it may stand you in a better stead to sway those you are trying to convince.

[Mason89]

2 hours ago, THFN1983 said:

When there's no pressure to improve in any job then you'll find yourself going through the motions and not applying yourself as hard as you can do. I think that can be levelled against our current crop and certainly some past players also.

This is true. I’m unsackable in my job and I do the bare minimum every single day. I’m currently trying to teach myself card tricks during office hours 

[THFN1983]

13 minutes ago, Mason89 said:

This is true. I’m unsackable in my job and I do the bare minimum every single day. I’m currently trying to teach myself card tricks during office hours 

All jokes aside, if you're in an environment where you can consistently fail and find yourself back in the fold after every fuck up then it suggests to me that there's no real consequences. 

Has there been pressure on Mitov to perform for the past countless weeks? No

Has there been pressure on Nisbet or Lazetic to score when they were going through their barren spell? No

Has there been pressure on Topi or Karlsson or Milanovic or Bilalovic to create chances for the aforementioned 2? No

Has there been pressure on the defence when we're conceding from set pieces every game and hardly keeping clean sheets? No

There has been an acceptance for far too long that 3/10, 4/10, 5/0 performances don't matter as they'll be playing the next game.

This has been an ongoing issue for a very long time, going back further than Jimmy or Robson or even Glass and for that to be the case then it has to be a culture problem within the walls of AFC that has been allowed to continue and get worse.

Edited 13 hours ago by THFN1983
spelling mistake

[redordead]

For me, I feel that there isn't a proper talented leader in the squad.  Let's be brutally honest ( and I know Rico will jump on this)  if you arrive at cormack park and your asked to live up to the standards of shinnie,  that isn't a high bar.  He'd struggle to make the first 11 of the teams around us.

We need a match winner that the squad trust and think that if this guy is on my side we're gonna win.

Not singling shinnie out( he just happens to be the skipper) because we haven't had that guy in some time and we need someone that is a step above the rest to raise levels. Worryingly karlsson should've been that guy and regressed after a fortnight.

Players come in and go backwards in a couple of months.  That's a culture for me and it was happening long before Jimmy rocked up.

[OrlandoDon]

30 minutes ago, THFN1983 said:

Think you need to go for a wee calm down period perhaps? Or are you one of these posters that HAS to be correct and for any naysayers who have a different opinion to bow to your apparent superior insights??

 

As I said previously, let's just agree to disagree eh? The fact that others have liked my post suggests there's some validity to what I'm suggesting and that it's my opinion and no matter of sweary words typed by you will dissuade me of that.

 

I genuinely feel that there isn't enough pressure put on the players by those above them and as such they have been allowed to put in performances like Killie time and time again with no apparent consequences. You don't subscribe to that and that's fine but take a chill pill before posting as it may stand you in a better stead to sway those you are trying to convince.

We all should be the manager of Aberdeen, we are all always right. We’d be winning the league if I was manager!

good post, you created good discussion!

[OrlandoDon]

25 minutes ago, Mason89 said:

This is true. I’m unsackable in my job and I do the bare minimum every single day. I’m currently trying to teach myself card tricks during office hours 

That a great post! Although you’ll probably disagree with me

[THFN1983]

5 minutes ago, redordead said:

For me, I feel that there isn't a proper talented leader in the squad.  Let's be brutally honest ( and I know Rico will jump on this)  if you arrive at cormack park and your asked to live up to the standards of shinnie,  that isn't a high bar.  He'd struggle to make the first 11 of the teams around us.

We need a match winner that the squad trust and think that if this guy is on my side we're gonna win.

Not singling shinnie out( he just happens to be the skipper) because we haven't had that guy in some time and we need someone that is a step above the rest to raise levels. Worryingly karlsson should've been that guy and regressed after a fortnight.

Players come in and go backwards in a couple of months.  That's a culture for me and it was happening long before Jimmy rocked up.

Shinnie in no way is a Captain for me, yes he is one of a very few bunch that actually seems to care and tries his darndest to get AFC winning games but as I posted earlier, sometimes players can try too hard and it actually detracts from the dynamic of the team.

Devlin being captain in Shinnie's absence is equally laughable as there is nothing he has shown that would inspire me to pull my socks up and tear into the opposition.

I agree there is not one stand out player that you look at in our team that you fear letting down, that you know will rip you to shreds if your standards drop, not one! That is another horrendous indictment of our recruitment and promotion from within.

And I totally agree that players go backwards in double quick time once they pull on the famous red. This for me is a culture problem and has never been stamped out by various managers and "captains"

[OrlandoDon]

11 minutes ago, THFN1983 said:

Shinnie in no way is a Captain for me, yes he is one of a very few bunch that actually seems to care and tries his darndest to get AFC winning games but as I posted earlier, sometimes players can try too hard and it actually detracts from the dynamic of the team.

Devlin being captain in Shinnie's absence is equally laughable as there is nothing he has shown that would inspire me to pull my socks up and tear into the opposition.

I agree there is not one stand out player that you look at in our team that you fear letting down, that you know will rip you to shreds if your standards drop, not one! That is another horrendous indictment of our recruitment and promotion from within.

And I totally agree that players go backwards in double quick time once they pull on the famous red. This for me is a culture problem and has never been stamped out by various managers and "captains"

I think a captain varies by manager. Ronaldo and bruno Fernandez are absolutely not captains to me for example, but certainly to their teams and country. some go for effort, communication, ability, position, tenure at the club, nationality, etc. Shinnie leads by example and would sweat blood for the club, and was one of our best players (may still be due to the crap we have), a captain to many but not all.

Edited 13 hours ago by OrlandoDon