tom_widdows

I still dont think yer dream of a generation of kids suddenly turning to the local teams can ever happen. There are too many alternatives to football (and indeed sport on the whole) which will always tempt kids away. Why bother going to watch the team when you can play as them on yer Playstation or nintendo or watch them on yer sky digital in the warm. You want crowds to build then the only way i can see it happening is to return to the days when the only time you go to see yer team on the TV was the occasional cup final. Saturday night Sportscene had 1 scottish game and a couple of english premier matches. Then you had scotsport on sundays with 1 main match and the goals of all the rest plus division 1 and selected games from division 2. Those older than me will probably recount getting less selection than that. Only way you got to see the team play on the day was to get of yer arse and head to the stadium. And there was no...ah its to cold to go watch East Fife, im staying in or going to the pub to watch Man United on the telly. But now the clubs (or rather the players) have become reliant on the TV money cash cow to pay the bills so unless every single league in the world (or rather england, italy, germany, Holland, france, Spain and Portugal) tells sky etc to go fuck themselves, they are only getting highlights from now on then the 'other' clubs will continue to struggle and see support fall to the basic hardcore.

I think yer underestimating the population demographics of the highland region and indeed scotland A mere 370,000 people live in the highlands which includes 40,000 in inverness alone i reckon you would struggle to find 100,000 people living in the towns and villages in the 110miles stretch of the A9 to Inverness Tis interesting that you said Kilmarnock has ayrshire when Ayr has a higher population You cant just do the American franchise thing and say 'oh St johnstone, that'll be the highlands team, lots of people wil flock to them if they became successfull 'because within 40miles of perth you have Dundee, Dundee United, Dunfermline Athletic, Raith Rovers, Arbroath, Forfar Athletic. The only way that would work is if you started amalgamating teams - Montrose, brechin, Arbroath & forfar suddenly become Angus Utd. St johnstone and the dundee teams become Tayside Rovers. Ayr & kilmarnock becomes Ayrshire county and so on until you have a league of about 12 teams. People who are genuinly interested in the game will not suddenly switch loyalties because a new team has sprung up or a shite team suddenly becomes successful - Take Inverness Caley who had an average crowd of less than 2000 till they got to the SPL when it only increased to just under 4000 which will have been boosted by large away followings from us and the old firm. Its dropped right back down again. The inverness football fans already have their teams and while they may look out for the caley score their hearts lie with the Aberdeens, huns etc The OF cancer as you refer to it will always exist in football. The only thing that will change is the teams it infects. 20 years ago if you said people all over the UK would be wandering around in Chelsea Replica strips you would have been told no chance. But suddenly they got money and could compete so all those who had latched onto Blackburn, Newcastle and Arsenal suddenly switched to Blue. When middlesborough signed up ravanelli, and Juniniho suddenly they had a few extra people claiming to follow them but they soon fucked off when it all went tits up. Ive heard tell that in the 80s there were kids all over scotland wearing Aberdeen & dundee United replica kits and the crowds at Ibrox were down to less than 5000 on some occasions. Suddenly murray comes along, Splashes the cash and 40000 reappear. Celtics were struggling to pull in 12000 as recently as the 1993/94 season, then fergus Mccan comes along, splashes the cash, moves them to Hampden for 1 season and suddenly the average crowd is 30,000 and rising. Success on the pitch is only part of the draw. you need those big name signings every season to keep people interested and they only come with billionaire russians attached. Ill bet if St johnstone suddenly won the SPL a few years in a row with the same players and finances they've always had their fan base wouldnt increase by more than a couple of thousand.

Since when is Perth classed as Central highland? Its not even in the highland region

No I dont feel anything for the fans here. Fans bitch and moan that their clubs are skint and its all 'why wont the board spend any money. Then suddenly they want the club to spend money that could be going on players, clearing debt etc on putting on a re-arranged match for free. if the match had been abandoned for something like floodlight failure or some other reason that was within Uniteds control then Id have some sympathy but for them to be forced out of pocket because of torrential rain is not on in my book. Had the game been at ibrox i seriously doubt rangers would let 50,000 people into the stadium for free. No doubt bain would be posted missing in that situation. BB - 250 monkeys is £6250 in the coffers. United save cash by not ordering pie & Bovril for 5700people, dont have to open up as many turnstiles and dont need as many cops & stewards. It will be interesting to see if they will allow cash turnstiles on the night but i think that is a no no when it comes to the gruesome twosome.

PS. they already got the revenue from the first match. Any money they make from this one is a bonus. Any money they lose is going to have quite a big impact on any possible transfers come january

I disagree with the fans being made to suffer line. The reality of the situation is of all the money United made on match day I suspect at least 1/3 possibly more went on policing. Now suddenly they are supposed to put on the same match for free and cover the policing costs themselves? I do wonder if rangers went to united and said 'here now, we'll pay half the police costs if you let our fans in to free. I bet they fucking didnt! And for all the talk of the announcement during the match the only people that seem to be proclaiming they were told the re-arranged game would be free entry are rangers fans. These are the same bunch of wankers who claimed they were being victimised because they had to go to Inverness during the christmas period a couple of years back. Do you see up complaining that we have to go to St Mirren on Boxing day? Of did Killie fans kick up a fuss when they had to go to pittodrie on Boxing day 2006? Only 250 hun fans? well fantastic for united id say. stick them all in the lower tier of the fair play stand and give every other seat to the home supposrt. If this was happening at pittodrie id certainly be making the trip north As for the trades descrption act argument This is like people declaring they can return stuff to the shop so long as its within 28days of purchase. This is a myth because each store has their own returns policy which will be validated by the Trades people. Unless it states very clearly on the back of the ticket 'if the match is abandoned at halftime you are entitled to free entry at the re-arranged game' then you aint got a leg to stand on.

and back in scotland Im finding this to be very entertaining http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dundee_utd/8404360.stm Im wondering how he is going to take this further? Encourage his hooded hordes to trash dundee perhaps?

Arabs must be more pissed off than us. They only has 2 reds last season. They've already had 6 and its not even january

Seems we have hit a run of finishing each game with at least 1 player sent off. Is it a case of a new harder edge to the squad? Aberdeen - 2008/2009 5 red cards (1 every 7.6 games) (Joint 3rd worst) 58 Yellow cards (1.53 per match) (9th worst in SPL) 2009/2010 5 Red Cards (1 every 2.8 games) (3rd worst in SPL) 29 Yellow cards (2.07 per match) (joint worst in SPL with Hibs) or is it the case that referees are getting too card happy? SPL totals 2008/2009 38 rounds of matches - 54 red Cards (1.4 red cards each round) 752 Yellow Cards (19 yellow cards each round) 2009/2010 14 rounds of matches - 29 Red Cards (2.07 per round) (12 in the last 3 weeks) 291 yellow cards (20.8 yellow cards each round) (arabs vs huns still to be played too) Perhaps a new prediction league should be set up for 'whos going to be sent off this week?'

so are they supposed to actually hit the crossbar or just get it over? If its the latter im quite concerned If its the former why is young celebrating?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4202571.stm Hard to believe I know

Perhaps because one stand is a fire hazard and the fire chiefs 'back handers' are getting more expensive every season and our biggest stand is sinking since it has no real foundations other than a slab of concrete laid over some sandy soil way back in the early 20th century. Of course we could try to the first club in history to have a stadium with just 2 goal end stands in use (and we would still have 9500 seats) too

The bluetones per chance? Im going to see them on the 18th.

May 9th 2010 SECC!!!

Er no they didnt. On both occasions meadowbank was extended with temporary stands boosting the capacity to over 40,000. (if you can bare it) You seriously think a city would be given the commonwealth games if the main stadium had a capacity of just 16500 (only 7500 of which is seated)? As for Scotland and ireland 'marginally' missing out? More like we were basically laughed out the door and then decided to try and blame ireland for not managing to come up with a stadium - which was bollocks because they had croke park and a redeveloped lansdowne road in the wings. The main issue UEFA had were 5 of the 8 stadiums put forward would be in just 2 cities- Edinburgh & Glasgow. Thats 5 stadiums in the space of 50miles which would be a nightmare for policing, accomodation of the fans, transportation etc. Plus Hampden was being touted as the venue for the final even though it was only the 3rd largest on the list. The scottish bid was rushed and as a result came off as completely half assed so we were kicked out in the preliminary round. we should have set out sights on 2016 instead of rushing to try and snatch 2008 and 2012.

Id like to add nimbyism to you little list Jaeger. in the rare occasions you get a supporting planner, a fantastic architect with a great multidisciplinary design team etc behind them the whole thing can always be scuppered by mr bloggs from down the road - which while frustrating is not a bad thing. Take that away and we are China. Whilst not great design in any way take a look at the main stand at fir park - runs only 2/3 of the pitch because one local resident put up a fight. Ill bet the aberdeen bypass never comes about because no one wants it through their aberdeenshire back yard (if at all) Then of course come historic scotland, english heritage, RCAHMS, environmental groups, independant conservation groups, residents groups, rival developers or businesses stirring up the locals -old mr milne certainly benefited from that at kepplestone. There are always going to be shite buildings but Ill lay good money that more than half of these are created for retail or to encourage industry - Aberdeen is a classic example with beach developments of the mid 90s and of course the latest addition down by the station. It is alleged that Aberdeen city council told the beach developers (Amadeus etc) to get stuffed, to which the response was 'ok we'll go build it in dundee then' - sudden U-Turn. Except of course for the new retail units -Big W, JJB gym etc which were refused by the council but approved on appeal by the scottish executive. A football stadium doesnt encourage major retailers to come to the city or create jobs the way a shopping mall does so 'backhanders' are a bit more expensive As for the M8 through charing cross? that was built in 1969, a time where you could pretty much build what you liked - Historic scotland was only formally set up in the late 80s. I seriously doubt the M8 would have been built through charing cross or tradestone had someone with their influence been around.

Go make an appointment with Aberdeen city council and see what they say. I already know what their answer will be

Reekie, as my boss say ' you can do anything so long as you can afford to pay for it.' Stating that those who dont see your grand scheme of things are lacking imagination is showing a great lack of thought on your part. There are several members of this board, including myself who work in the construction trade and know all too well the perils of the planning process. To the best of my knowledge there is not a single british stadium which has a stand built over a road. The mighty manchester united have been in negotiations for years to reconstruct their main stand over a local railway line and have been turned down every time. Spurs proposed extending one of their stands over paxton road and were told to get stuffed even though paxton road is not too disimilar to pittodrie street. They have now spent millions on masterplanning a brand new stadium/ hotel/ houing complex away from white hart lane which has only just been submitted for planning but already has english heritage up in arms. Head over to Ireland and you will see that Landsdowne road has been rebuilt away from the railway line - the old stand was built over it. I can only think of 1 football stadium which as a motorway running underneath it and that is athletico madrids and they had the advantage of 1) spanish planning and building regulations, 2) the motorway was being constructed at the same time as the stadium. To answer your question about how keen i am to head out to loriston loch for 7pm in late november in the pissing freezing rain to see us play st mirren? I feel exactly the same as I would going to pittodrie. I think pittodrie is a shithole. It has bad views, poor facilities, poor legroom in 3 of the 4 stands and should be ever get into the champions league we wont be able to play there. The only decent stand has had a section of its upper tier views damaged by lengthening the pitch. I want to put this to you. None of us have seen detailed plans for the stadium. If it is to ever obtain planning permission they will have to masterplan the whole thing - Transport links, road structures, car parking, environmental impacts. You are not allowed to go build a 20,000 seat stadium and not have infastructure available to cope with it. Oh and as for mr milne. Please please please will every single one of you get this into your heads. Milnes company is worth several hundred million (or at least it used to be). The man himself is not. If he wants to fork out 50million of his companies cash on a new stadium he has to go through shareholders, the banks, and ill bet the inland revenue will want a word, not to mention the few hundred employees who were either let go or put on a 3 day week on half pay when the arse fell out of the construction industry. His own personal fortune will probably cover the stadium costs but leave him completely broke and ill bet the family and friends will be 100% behind that venture Its like hitting your head off a brick wall sometimes. Change the record.

Do you have any idea of the red tape that comes with messing with public roads? The main stand - you suggest a concourse in the car park area. 1) instantly you have reduced the carparking available to the stadium. Where are these cars going to go. Where are the players and staff going to park? 2) concourse has to be traffice free so pittodrie street would have to be closed. This will impact businesses, local residents, Emergency access to the stadium not to mention what issues it could have on local traffic management, servicesm utilities etc. Id say the number of objections from domestic residents would be enough to slam that one into the ground. The south stand - The large nothing at the back of the stadium? You've just destroyed the stadiums largest car park and also an area the police use on occasions to ensure away fans are put onto their buses without having to leave the curtilage of the stadium. 'so mr Milne you propose to redevelop your stadium but want to lose all your carparking spaces? And the chief constable here seems to have an issue with security. Golf Road why are you highlighting golf road as a potential area to build on. This is the one part of the stadium that actually meets the criteria. Are you suggesting that the stadium be completely demolished and moved closer to the beach? Im actually concerned at your 'golf road has nothing but the broadhill bar opposite it' because that sounds like the sort of shit donald trump would pull. You seem to have forgotten that golf road is an access route for the golf course, the driving range, the graveyard, houses, flats, etc . These people have claims to that road and fucking it up will be met with objections and expensive legal battles. Please start thinking with your head and not your heart. It cost Arsenal £80,000,000 to do stuff similar to what you are suggesting and that was before they even got to building the emirates. Last time I checked our budget was £50,000,000 for the whole package.

The fact manchester city council obtained compulsary purchase orders to free up the land doesnt have any impact on this then? Or Arsenal having to buyout all the tennants in ashburton grove and also pay to re-house them (not just householders either, some pretty big businesses too) plus all the transport infastructure - total cost approx £80,000,000 And in the case of Manchester city they had the advantage of not having to pay to build the bloody thing since the local council, lottery commision and local tax payer funded not just the stadium but also the transport infastructure. Arsenal on the other hand also had the advantage of £100,000,000 coming on from emirates. (over 1/4 of the total stadium cost) and that little patch of ground called highbury being worth considerably more than the £9million pittodrie WAS valued at prior to the economic downturn. The Chris anderson complex is not a stadium and more importantly it is not designed to have 20,000 people converging on it every second saturday. If it was they would never have got past the feasibility stage. Do you think it is a coincidence that there is such a large concourse at the back of the RDS - and that is for 6000 fans? Can you see where an equivalent concourse could be constructed behind the merkland, south stand or main stand?

This whole shirtlifting thing kicked off when Middlebrough signed Ravanelli in 1996. At the time I was confused as to why the press & FA etc were making such a big deal about a bloke showing his chest to the crowd but as far as I can recall it was deemed that the sight of a pro footballer running up the touchline showing his bare chest while covering his face could 'insight a riot' in England. So Ravanelli and Middlesbrough were actually told he could only do it if he wore a T shirt underneath. And of course the SFA followed suit Pre 1996 remember seeing Duncan Ferguson taking his shirt off and waving it like a flag and I dont think he got booked but cant be sure. Anyway IMO the only celebrations that should warrant a yellow card should be those that are conducted directy and deliberatly infront of the other teams fans, or possible jumping into the crowd to celebrate with yer own fans (potential injuries as the crowd surges forward- although thats happened at celtic park each time ive been there no dons player has left the pitch). Had Mcadonald done this infront of the East Stand then I could understand this booking but this really is pathetic but either way he gave away a really stupid yellow in the middle of the pitch (highlights) and knew the rules on celebrating so hes a bit of a muppet. But pro footballers aint usually famous for their intelligence.

2-1 united

6k RDS yes But i cannot see how they could re-build a 9000 seat south stand, 3000 seat Merkland or main with the new flats, the existing graveyard and an increase in the pitch size. Try to make any of these 2 tiered and the residents will be up in arms plus they will all probably have to be like this.

Actually we didnt sign Hamilton until March 1999. Winters came along in September 1998. Ive no idea who winters was upfront with (Only other attacking players I can think of were Jess and Darren Young) We all knew winters was a different type of player which was why, over in the highlands myself and the few local dons fans were quite looking forward to the winters Dodds partnership.

I think it would have been slightly less painful if dodds hadnt scored a hat trick in his last game for us (league cup away to caley thistle). He then scored a hat trick in his first game for united against st johnstone. Meanwhile we had to wait until the 2nd week of december for winters to get his first goal for us (header which Rousett managed to break the goals trying to keep out, followed up by Eoin Jess scoring a second with a run from the halfway line.) Believe we missed a penalty in that game too.