Author Topic: player’s conditioning  (Read 1318 times)

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Offline ayrshire_don74

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player’s conditioning
« on: December 23, 2019, 08:09:30 PM »
comment earlier about cosgrove being ‘big’  but being a pussy he isnt getting proper conditioning training, mcginn a stone overweight , ferguson overweight, a lot of hype re ronaldos header this week , he does specific training to enable that , and thats arguably one of the best players ever, look at salah mane .. listen i get technically our players cant be world beaters  but they can  be physically.. there is no excuse for this


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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2019, 01:20:38 AM »
Cosgrove was on red Tv just last week wit Logan doing a walkround of the new training facility. Specifically says that he now stays around at least an extra hour every day to do gym work after training now that the facilities allow it.

Ferguson doesn't look overweight to me. McGinn...maybe but at his age he may well be limited as to how much training his body can take without risking the training itself causing injury.

What you have to realise is that everyone's body is different. Hence why sprinters are shite long distance runners and vice versa. Or why shot putters are dreadful at high jump ( the obvious exceptions to the rule being the decathletes/heptathletes who are just natural all-rounders). And in football, a 6ft 3 centre half makes a horrendous winger and a 5ft 8 winger makes a uselessl centre half. But in all cases...they reach an optimal level of fitness required for their specific discipline. If they don't....they don't get picked.


Offline RicoS321

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2019, 08:12:33 AM »
Good post TC. Sums it up nicely.

Offline ayrshire_don74

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2020, 10:49:46 PM »
Didnt see the reply actually its horseshit......these players are not pushed to their limits to be physical specimens, Mcginn as had too much beer at least a stone overweight, Ferguson looks 'chunky'  all these guys can get stronger and fitter, leaner  thats my point ... have a look at Mo Salah... Troare at Wolves..
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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2020, 10:24:06 AM »
You are just wrong. As I said....everyone's physiology is different. And it changes as we get older. Indeed the WHO definition of "middle aged" begins at age 25.

Every club of a decent level has a sports scientist working with the coaches/physios/medical department. This is a relatively new concept, only really starting about 20 or so years ago. So todays players, whether you believe it or not, are most certainly fitter and in better condition than those in the 80s and further back. Whether they are better natural footballers you can certainly debate......I'd suggest not as back in the old days there was no internet and game consoles were hugely expensive and relatively basic. Kids spent every minute they could outside playing....boys would play football almost non stop in long summer days. They'd also start smoking at 14 or so and be out at the pub every weekend from the minute they could get served. Eating a diet now recognised as pretty unhealthy.....and they kept this up through their careers. Sports science and general education has almost eliminated all these bad habits (Dean Campbell apparently is a heavy smoker....he will pay for that in his career and I'm prepared to say that Aberdeen will be the pinnacle of it)

Even evolution plays a part in not just football, but every sport. Players of every sport are far taller and have a bigger muscle mass than those 50 years ago. Hence why world records have been smashed. But as I say...everyone is different and the ageing process cannot be halted (well actually it can....the USSR and Easter European countries in the 60s/70s/80s gave certain sportsmen and women artificial hormones to delay puberty and keep them artificially small (gymnasts) or in other cases to bulk up their physique ( throwing or strength based sports and sprinting) or to enable longer endurance......all of whom are now dead or suffering horrendous side effects. Olga Korbut the gymnast looked about 70 when she was only in her early 40s).

Lastly...the training in itself can be a risk. As we age, our tissues naturally become less elastic. Thankfully sports science now realises this. So training programmes are devised for each individual player or athlete. So sportsmen and women now have longer careers. Over training in "elderly" sportsmen can and usually will cause more problems than just keeping up basic fitness, So don't expect McGinn to lose the extra stone or so he looks to be carrying any time soon. Indeed it's probably the same reason why Gleeson has never been fit in his time with us and will likely end his career (at a decent level anyway) at a relatively young age. They just cannot do the training they were able to even 3 years ago. Some players in their mid 30s do almost no training at all during the week, barring some basic jogging and low risk warming up "looseners",  indeed a few do absolutely nothing at all barring playing once a week. In football....every player these days has an individual file, It contains all their medical records, any dietary advice given/recommended body mass index, recommended training programmes and then....details of every day's training that the participate in. This follows the player to every club he joins. Of course completing this is hugely time consuming hence why admin staffing levels and costs have gone through the roof since the 90s.



Offline LA-Don

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2020, 01:15:53 PM »
I think both of you are correct to an extent. The modern player should be shredded, that’s a fact. With the amount of physical training and sports science behind it, the footballers body should be in great shape. I’d suggest the likes of Ferguson and McGinn have diet/nutrition issues. Does Ferguson love a good mars bar? Are they knocking back pints? Pizza suppers and chippies? What’s the carb intake? Particularly with McGinn and injuries, his diet is more important than ever because he’s not burning what he used to since I’m sure he trains less.

I’m 47 and in good shape. By no means am I a naturally skinny guy, I can gain weight. Athletic Director at my school and I work closely with my athletic trainer and strength/conditioning coach. I was shredded at 43 then had kids so not so fit now but still good. I’d argue that the dons footballers do way more training than me, but I have many of them on diet. That’s the key and based on what I see with them that’s where the difference is. I’d expect that Mo Salah and Ronaldo kill our boys in what they put into their bodies.

Lastly, reading rocket and others talking about not drinking in January. Since new year I went back to the non holiday diet, no booze, minimal extra sugar, monitoring carb and protein intake, drinking lots of water. Since October it’s been ‘candy’ with kids at Halloween, then thanksgiving, Christmas, new year and I chunked up a bit. Since January 1 I have lost 8 pounds. I’m still 11 pounds heavier than when I was in my best shape at 43. I’d argue that McGinn and Ferguson are fit but change their diet and they’d drop a stone. I played too but if I can do that at 47, and I have had knee, ankle surgeries and other injuries, no reason to think mcginn and Ferguson can’t too.

Offline LA-Don

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2020, 01:35:47 PM »
I will add, pretty sure it was John Collins who first bought into the real professional footballers lifestyle in regards to health, fitness, diet and nutrition, during his time in France. He was laughed at endlessly when he came back here and was called a freak, but even when we was part of the coaching staff at Celtic he was way fitter and healthier than most of the players.

Salah and Ronaldo have the resources that certainly help, no doubt with personal chefs, trainers etc to ensure that body is at its maximum efficiency. Ferguson and McGinn certainly don’t have that luxury, and the fact that we even employee a smoker to play for us tells you that there are issues at the club and our boys aren’t in proper peak condition. That should never happen in this day and age.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 01:39:36 PM by LA-Don »

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2020, 02:19:19 PM »
Some very interesting and knowledgeable posts on this thread.

This caught my eye: -

But in all cases...they reach an optimal level of fitness required for their specific discipline. If they don't....they don't get picked.

That's the theory but there will be variances due to who's doing the picking.

I have no access to their medical/ fitness/ strength and conditioning/ nutritional files. All I have is experience, which includes watching professional football over a period of seven decades now, as well as 57.5 years of life plus working very closely with professional athletes, some of whom earning more in a year than every AFC footballer earns in a playing career. One of my best mates is a kinesiologist and I am well aware of the importance of physical conditioning without having detailed knowledge of what current trends are in football and at AFC. I'm also aware than some practitioners are better than others, in every field. Some lawyers are worth fifty times more than the average hack, some doctors are incompetent whilst others have an amazing instinct for healing, in every field there are massive differences between the best and the worst.

Whatever they're doing at the state of the art training facility on the road to Westhill, and whatever they've been doing for seven years, the only question at the end of the day is is it working?

Before that question can be answered, we need to know the objective and the game. We also need to appreciate that one man is in charge of everything pertaining to the "football side of the business".

Football is not an endurance sport. It's not as dependent on physical bulking as the East German shot putters. It's not as reliant on muscle mass composition and breathing efficiency as the cyclists. Physique and physical conditioning is very important in football, of course it is but it's only one part of the equation. Technical and mental factors are also equally important to overall performance, both individually and (as it is a team game) collectively.

Yesterday the difference between the two SPFL games shown on Sky was stark. St Mirren and Aberdeen was littered with errors including unforced errors, losing possession carelessly and passes going astray in every minute of the game. At Tynecastle, not only were there far fewer unforced errors, the pace of the game was way faster and sharper. The Hearts and Rangers players were hungrier and played with an intensity and desire which was in stark contrast to the previous shambles, despite Gerrard "not recognising" his team.

Hearts are bottom of the league for fuck sake so why, under their new manager can they show enough to beat the league leaders (or at least they would've been if they'd won their game in hand) whereas AFC under their old manager couldn't show enough to threaten the goal of a very shit club who despite being managed well by all accounts have no chance of top six?

They all go on about how Aberdeen are a "physical side" but I don't care how many fouls Cosgrove and Ferguson give away. I don't care if McKenna uses his size to bump into, hassle and frustrate the opposition. All I do know is that results are the most important measure of overall effectiveness and something hasn't been working for a very long time.

McInnes DOES pick players who aren't good enough, whatever their personal files says. He recruited them! A system is only as good as the people who implement and manage it. Their condition looks far from "optimal" to me but even if it was on a par with Rangers and Hearts, they're not capable of performing like that, with sharp crisp passing, controlling it instantly and attacking with desire, pace and imagination. The technical skills are poor and their motivation levels are so bad. However physically fit they might be isn't producing a product worth watching and it's getting worse.
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Offline RicoS321

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2020, 03:45:44 PM »
McInnes DOES pick players who aren't good enough, whatever their personal files says. He recruited them! A system is only as good as the people who implement and manage it. Their condition looks far from "optimal" to me but even if it was on a par with Rangers and Hearts, they're not capable of performing like that, with sharp crisp passing, controlling it instantly and attacking with desire, pace and imagination. The technical skills are poor and their motivation levels are so bad. However physically fit they might be isn't producing a product worth watching and it's getting worse.

I'd probably go along with that. I trust the sports scientist guys to get it - for the most part - correct. We're a fit team as far as I can see. Ferguson looks absolutely fine for a young loon too, and I think McGinn just has a different body shape rather than a weight issue. Very difficult to tell without seeing them with their tops off, which I don't think is necessary! McGinn also works his arse off in games, including St Mirren, but often with little return. The midfield have been in and out through injury, so it's difficult to tell. For me, the biggest thing is the amount of wasted energy in a game. We have players moving up and down, but we're too slow to move the ball. Ferguson covered a huge amount of ground at the weekend coming back into his preferred position and back up the pitch again. We're making the wrong runs in the wrong areas, and taking a first "possession" touch backwards where a turn would be more efficient. Furthermore, we keep players that aren't performing on for far too long, expending more fruitless energy. McInnes loves this type of shite, there's no way on earth he won't be monitoring players' distance travelled, heart rates, diets etc., he just misses the tactical basics all too often. That results in wasted energy, and also lethargy as our own players [must] see that things are not working.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2020, 04:25:28 PM »
For me, the biggest thing is the amount of wasted energy in a game. We have players moving up and down, but we're too slow to move the ball.

You raise another important aspect in the whole equation, tactics and strategy.

For me (and following my need to simplify the complex) football is threefold;

Physical, Technical and Mental, with tactics coming under the Technical umbrella (alongwith basic individual skills of course, the ability to trap, pass and kick a ba).

In context, the conditioning of the players is nowhere near the top of the list of areas for focus and improvement. They look fit enough for the job overall without being physically impressive. There's an argument that they would run and move the ball faster if they knew exactly what they're supposed to be doing and were confident both in their own capabilities (mental) and the overall game plan (technical) but that's an aside.

The biggest influencer in overall performance is the manager. This has always been the case and always will be. Before they can work on their physical, technical and mental skills, they have to be capable of performing at the level required which in the case of a club the size of AFC is to win stuff so recruitment (part of the remit of the technical abilities of the manager) is very important too. Every decade of my lifetime, Aberdeen won stuff, including the spectacular 80's which was a freak period of overachievement that nobody could have anticipated. Much as it was welcome and hugely enjoyable, we knew it could never last, even at the time. When Hewitt scored v. Real Madrid, I turned to my mate in the Ullevi and said "THIS is the pinnacle". That period was made possible by the hunger and the genius of the manager, probably the best manager of all time in the whole of football history, even though he had his faults too, as always, yin and yang. This century, AFC have had their leanest trophy return in all of our lifetimes.

McInnes should never be mentioned in the same breath as good and great managers of course, let alone the best. His performance record doesn't stand up. We see it in his players month in, year out. It takes just a basic level of critical thinking to pinpoint his specific weaknesses and it is for his boss to decide whether he can change and whether to pursue with him or not. I say that seven years of concrete evidence is screaming at us that he's not fit for purpose. At least he now knows that he's on his way out but it should never have taken this long to get rid of the charlatan midget cunt, just like Calderwood was given far too long and should never have been recruited.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 04:27:52 PM by rocket_scientist »
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Offline LA-Don

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2020, 04:37:23 PM »
Going back purely to the weight issue. I'm not doubting the effort and work ethic of McGinn and Ferguson, for the most part they are hard working players. But if you look at their bodies compared to other players questions get asked, especially with the amount of running. Imagine being 10 pounds lighter and doing the same job....you'd do it better and feel better!

I also acknowledge that with Ferguson he's young, not even a fully developed adult yet. He's definitely carrying baby weight but I highly doubt he has a professional diet. McGinn too, I'd argue that despite the work ethic he is less mobile now and a few pounds lighter would certainly help, and also help with the stress/injuries on the body carrying less weight.

Offline ayrshire_don74

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2020, 06:52:57 PM »
why cant we be the fittest strongest team in the league ?
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Offline tom_widdows

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2020, 07:31:27 PM »
Last time I can recall a coach concentrating on the dons being the fittest team was a certain Alex Miller. Couple of times there were boasts the entire team could run a marathon.

Marathon runners they may have been. A winning football team on the other hand......
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Offline ayrshire_don74

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2020, 09:53:10 PM »
stupid feckless response
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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2020, 10:13:15 AM »
why cant we be the fittest strongest team in the league ?

I'm sure every team aspires to this. It probably could even be proved using individual training records although some of the criteria would be subjective. However as players age into their 30s their fitness just cannot be kept as it was in their peak years. And serious injury can limit capabilities even once considered recovered, age again playing it's part.

I suspect that being considered the "fittest" team wouldn't make a helluva lot of difference. West Germany in the early 80s to early 90s went for this approach...their team was mainly composed of 6ft plus athletes with the odd smaller playmaker like Magath thrown in. Reached 3 successive World Cup Finals, winning the 1990 one but boy were they brutal to watch. They lost the 82 final to an Italian team full of chain-smokers and wine lovers...who played off the cuff and were a delight to watch. And lost the 86 final to an Argentine team with a rapidly bloating Maradona off his nut on cocaine (I still can't believe that the drug testers never caught him until 91), again full of chain-smokers and whose team were relative midgets compared to the Germans. Talent trumps being the absolute fittest....

What really matters is having as big a squad as possible nowadays. Both the arse cheeks are capable of playing 2 separate elevens that are capable of beating every other team.

Offline Ollie

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2020, 09:39:03 PM »

Sports science and general education has almost eliminated all these bad habits (Dean Campbell apparently is a heavy smoker....he will pay for that in his career and I'm prepared to say that Aberdeen will be the pinnacle of it)
By all means, criticise his ability, as you're perfectly entitled to your opinion. But please don't pretend to know anything about his private life and continue to perpetuate absolute nonsense you've read on another chat site.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2020, 07:31:18 AM »
By all means, criticise his ability, as you're perfectly entitled to your opinion. But please don't pretend to know anything about his private life and continue to perpetuate absolute nonsense you've read on another chat site.

It is now incumbent on the accused to explain his sources.

Surprised he hadn't responded already given that he saw this last night?
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Offline BigAl

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2020, 09:16:53 AM »
By all means, criticise his ability, as you're perfectly entitled to your opinion. But please don't pretend to know anything about his private life and continue to perpetuate absolute nonsense you've read on another chat site.

Firstly Ollie, welcome to the site. Hope you'll hang around here.
Think most of us know the source of TC's comments regarding Deano.
My son and I were speaking about this at St Mirren on Sunday and both agreed we would be astounded if the claims were correct. In this day and age with all we now know, it would be madness for any professional athlete starting out in their career to indulge in such actions.

Would imagine you should know better than most the ins and outs of this.
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Offline RicoS321

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2020, 01:09:06 PM »
Firstly Ollie, welcome to the site. Hope you'll hang around here.
Think most of us know the source of TC's comments regarding Deano.
My son and I were speaking about this at St Mirren on Sunday and both agreed we would be astounded if the claims were correct. In this day and age with all we now know, it would be madness for any professional athlete starting out in their career to indulge in such actions.

Would imagine you should know better than most the ins and outs of this.

Agreed. It's akin to gambling. The club would never allow it. Not even for the player's health, but the club's image. The first thing they'd do is get him help to stop, then he'd stop. If it's on a chat site, then the club would know about it and would have dealt with it. If it was on AFC chat then the club would likely know it's someone posting a wind up and would dismiss it. It's clearly not true. Kids vape these days anyway.

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Re: player’s conditioning
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2020, 07:24:25 PM »
Firstly...I have to apologise to Ollie...and more importantly the loon himself

I did indeed get the info from elsewhere and stupidly took it as gospel. In my defence I did use the word "apparently" which was meant to signify that the info I was using was second hand but I could have made that a lot clearer.

Lesson learned

My apologies once again