Ajja Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 This is a well thought out post Ajja which sums up the debate well. I, like you, would love to see us accomplish a level of consistently good football without the seemingly inevitable dire slumps in form which seem to undermine our progress at regular intervals. However, any team which plays "consistently good good football" and balances between "being exciting to watch" and achieving results is likely to run away with the league in Scotland because every club, outside of the old firm, who occasionally manage this balance, struggles to achieve this. If we did we wouldl not only challenge for honours but also win them. When I wrote this post I had exactly that thought KGB. You are absolutely right, the picture I paint is fairly ideological for sure, it may also be highly unlikely and unrealistic but I think its still worth considering as the 'next level'. One of the problems is that this perceived 'next level' that many of us are hungry for is seen as an ideological one by many. The fanbase lives on a spectrum whose extremes are 'those who see it as our right to expect it' and 'those who believe it out of reach'. Most of us rational fans live in the middle somewhere, although for many of us its more a sliding scale that we shoot back and forward along from Saturday to Saturday! If we could achieve the form that I described then you are right, we would probably be dominant in the domestic game in terms of 'the rest'. This would be largely down to the poor quality and inconsistency of the other teams. I would suggest that supports my definition of the next level as the dominant 3rd team in Scotland would be a level ahead of where we are now ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizer Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 But it is life! Some days we win, some days we lose. We will never ever ever win them all. There are far more important things in life than football, that to get so worked up by a bad result after a run of 5 or 6 unbeaten suggests you need to get things into perspective a bit. I was going to say you be would be worked up too if you had been there yesterday, but Im not worked up just resigned to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrlandoDon Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Interesting thoughts Ajja and I'll add my opinion. The reasonable expectation debate is the one that has killed me for years, especially since JC took over as I don't think it's unreasonable to expect third, achieving a cup final, and Europe. We always seem to shoot ourselves in the foot - last year versus Dundee Utd and QOS in the cups for example, and yesterday when we had a great opportunity with Hearts and Dundee Utd drawing and we play the bottom of the league team. We tend to let ourselves down far too regularly with a poor (attitude) performance and that is what irritates the fans most - we beat ourselves more than lose to quality opposition. The next level is consistency and this to me is the JC argument - I think we have JC's product, a middle of the league/slightly above average reasonably consistent team - currently 5th, last yr 4th, a 3rd, 6th, and 4th his first year. But by being consistent is he getting the best out of the players, team, squad? Personally I don't think so. I don't buy the 'we're not as shit as we used to be' argument so we should be happy, so are we achieving the most/best we can expect? I've never really been sold on JC but I think we're seeing his best efforts. But can we expect more, realistically should we do better, and can JC progress us even further? I'm not asking for JC to be sacked at present but at the end of the season I think the club/board need to clearly assess whether JC is giving them what AFC deserves having completed 5 seasons. While he has taken the club out of the shit times, are we 3rd, reaching Europe and a cup final most years? One 3rd place, one yr in Europe, and no cup finals so far - is that good enough for AFC? Do we keep JC because were not as shit as we used to be and were now pretty much a top 6 team, or do we look for someone to take us that step further? I think this to me will show the ambition of the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octavion Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 wee applaud Orlando Don and you too Ajja. Both well thought out posts ( mine probalbly isnt ) I like Calderwood I think he has taken us out of the crap and got us starting to beleive we should reclaim a rightful place at the top of the table. However he has yet to find a star player or partnership up front, but this i think is more due to funds available to obtain this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ally s Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Even though I expected us to win on Saturday I wasn't too down after the match. I thought we were the better team in the 1st half and had it not been for some awful decisions from the ref I think we'd have taken a point. We far from our best but I don't think we were as bad as a lot of folk were making out. I'd have to see the "foul" which lead to the penalty again as at the time I thought McCarthy took a dive. The 2nd goal was a simple case of us being caught at the back as a result of pushing further and further up the park. All in all I still think we have a good chance of finishing 3rd/qualifying for Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizer Posted January 5, 2009 Author Share Posted January 5, 2009 http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1011824 Too many of our players were not at the races against Accies By Jimmy Calderwood Published: 05/01/2009 THERE was an option to call off the game because of the pitch, but we had to think about our supporters. They had a wasted long journey to Kilmarnock a few weeks ago and they were in Hamilton in big numbers as well. They would have been angry if it had not gone ahead but now they are angry for another reason – and rightly so because it was a very poor performance. The narrower pitch probably did not help us with two wingers, but that is a feeble excuse, you should still be able to pass the ball from A to B. We have done very well to get back into the race for third and we thought we had a good chance to close the gap further but we blew it. Instead, we have fallen behind and lost the momentum. We started poorly and got worse. Our goalkeeper did not have too much to do, while their goalkeeper made several good saves and Darren Mackie missed a sitter, but too many players were not at the races. The preparations were not ideal but that should not have affected our defending or our ability to pass the ball. It might have affected their energy levels but they are all professionals and were all passed fit to play. If they are really bad they have to tell you about it and we asked them at half-time because a few of them looked as though they were suffering from more than just the flu. That was not an excuse, we just had too many players who did not turn up. I do not know if it was a penalty kick or not but these things happen when you are not defending well. It did not matter because Hamilton deserved it. In our last two matches we won all of the personal battles, but we did not win many on Saturday, if any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Padre™ Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 WE MUST WIN EVERY GAME JIMMY MUST GO OMFG LOLZ LMAO WTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glasgow sheep Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 WE MUST WIN EVERY GAME JIMMY MUST GO OMFG LOLZ LMAO WTF fuck off back to spain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizer Posted January 5, 2009 Author Share Posted January 5, 2009 WE MUST WIN EVERY GAME JIMMY MUST GO OMFG LOLZ LMAO WTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TENEMENTFUNSTER Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 You've caught him mid sob mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntbear Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 If were to play like that again we wouldnt be good enough to win next week! Jute summed it up for me perfectly, if Calderwood doent trust/rate the young players that were on the bench yesterday they should be punted now and get some ones in he will play, as he needed to get some most of the players off the park yesterday. So, The players we are buying in... your cheque book or mine? It certainly won't be Wiggy's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajja Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I actually think that Calderwoods response there is a good one. Its honest without making excuses and does not sound like a manager trying to pass the buck. He seems to have learned some new skills when it comes to communicating with the fans through the media these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born1983 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Shut up!!! 1 poor result and we want rid of him Were you saying GTF after the last 4 game prior to this one? 1 bad result in a while and we want rid of the manager. Its not like Hearts or UTD won their games and went much further ahead Who r u to tell me ti shut up??! Is this board nae aboot opinions? I wis saying Jimmy GTF afore fae hamilton again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TENEMENTFUNSTER Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Who r u to tell me ti shut up??! Is this board nae aboot opinions? I wis saying Jimmy GTF afore fae hamilton again His opinion is that it would be better if you shut up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntbear Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Whilst Ajja's post sums up most of the argument, here's my addition. No-one seems to take into account we have become a selling club, replacing half-decent talent with half-incapable talent. The expectation HAS to drop with the lack of investment we've had in recent years, but it doesn't seem to. The fact remains, we are a poorer playing squad than last Jan, and the summer before, to say we can play better football and SHOULD be 3rd, with a Cup Final, etc, etc. Just doesn't seem like a realistic target for me. I also think Jimmy has done well, his replacement players are not all that bad, but we haven't replaced Barry Nic, Anderson or Hart. Is that his fault? or the fault of an under-investment policy from above? It's great we are a club operating in profit (because - and only because - of player sales) but it can't continue like that forever, to get gates up we need better players, and better results. We can maybe get the better results with the players we have, but don't expect good football. And as for the "real" vs "so-called" fans debate - there is no such thing - it isn't up to other's to judge how 'good' a fan you are. We are all 'supporters' - and I would like to think would always support the 11 men that turn out for us - no matter how good or bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyBiscuit Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Whilst Ajja's post sums up most of the argument, here's my addition. No-one seems to take into account we have become a selling club, replacing half-decent talent with half-incapable talent. The expectation HAS to drop with the lack of investment we've had in recent years, but it doesn't seem to. The fact remains, we are a poorer playing squad than last Jan, and the summer before, to say we can play better football and SHOULD be 3rd, with a Cup Final, etc, etc. Just doesn't seem like a realistic target for me. I also think Jimmy has done well, his replacement players are not all that bad, but we haven't replaced Barry Nic, Anderson or Hart. Is that his fault? or the fault of an under-investment policy from above? It's great we are a club operating in profit (because - and only because - of player sales) but it can't continue like that forever, to get gates up we need better players, and better results. We can maybe get the better results with the players we have, but don't expect good football. And as for the "real" vs "so-called" fans debate - there is no such thing - it isn't up to other's to judge how 'good' a fan you are. We are all 'supporters' - and I would like to think would always support the 11 men that turn out for us - no matter how good or bad. We've always been a selling club, just that for a few years we had no one that we could actually sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Padre™ Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I think basically what Ajja and NtBear are saying is JIMMY MUST GO/SACK THE BOARD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboisared Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Who r u to tell me ti shut up??! Is this board nae aboot opinions? I wis saying Jimmy GTF afore fae hamilton again Ah. So you were saying JMG when he just won four games on the bounce? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntbear Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 We've always been a selling club, just that for a few years we had no one that we could actually sell. Have we? (honest q, not a wind up) It's just, I don't remember McLeish or Miller being sold, but then again I do remember Strachan, Leighton, McGhee, etc.... Maybe you are right, but as I said, that can't continue forever, especially if Bebo and Mackie are the "cream of the crop" of the youth ranks. There was a time when we occasionally bought a player - and I'm not including the purchase of Lee Miller (didn't we give them a lawn mower for him) and Tommy Wright - well, there is 75k that could have been spent on Jamie Smith's hospital bills. In recent years our club became a 2nd chance for hun and tim also-rans and a run-around for loan players from England. Sadly, we can't even seem to get 2nd chancers or young run-arounds these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyBiscuit Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Have we? (honest q, not a wind up) It's just, I don't remember McLeish or Miller being sold, but then again I do remember Strachan, Leighton, McGhee, etc.... Maybe you are right, but as I said, that can't continue forever, especially if Bebo and Mackie are the "cream of the crop" of the youth ranks. Of course we have. If we weren't, we wouldn't have lost Strachan, Rougvie and McGhee straight after winning the domestic double. We wouldn't have earlier sold Archibald to Spurs, or even earlier with Buchan, Graham and Harper all going South after the Scottish Cup win of 1970. Leighton left and even Snelders, Wright, Jess, Glass etc. We are in a position, and always have been in a position where there will always be far bigger fish who can take away our best players. Of course, some of our best players - you mentioned McLeish and Miller - will make the choice to stay, but in the main, our players will jump ship. Whether that is because of the amount of money offered for the player, the personal terms offered to the player, the career prospects of the player improving or if it's for all of those reasons it still amounts to us being a selling club. There isn't a team in Scotland - the OF included - who isn't a selling club. I said earlier that we stopped being a selling club for a time, but that was tongue in cheek because with the "talent" we had no-one in their right mind would pay for them. Unless Trump puts a veritable fortune into us, we will never stop being a selling club. There was a time when we occasionally bought a player - and I'm not including the purchase of Lee Miller (didn't we give them a lawn mower for him) and Tommy Wright - well, there is 75k that could have been spent on Jamie Smith's hospital bills. In recent years our club became a 2nd chance for hun and tim also-rans and a run-around for loan players from England. Sadly, we can't even seem to get 2nd chancers or young run-arounds these days. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here. What "2nd chancers" or "young run-arounds" have we gone for and not signed? Did we not just sign Charlie Mulgrew a few months ago? Mark Kerr looks a solid signing and there have been flashes that Gary McDonald could be a good player for us. Sone Aluko would maybe fall into your category of "young run-arounds", and I'd say I was pretty pleased we signed him. Serious question - who or what are you expecting us to sign? Are Mulgrew, Kerr and Aluko not good signings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajja Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I think basically what Ajja and NtBear are saying is JIMMY MUST GO/SACK THE BOARD Why do you insist on putting things in my mouth you bully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
??? Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Why do you insist on putting things in my mouth you bully. Because you're both gayers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Padre™ Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Because you're both gayers? Not necessarily. NOT NECESSARILY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntbear Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Serious question - who or what are you expecting us to sign? Are Mulgrew, Kerr and Aluko not good signings? Aluko = good signing - we will make a profit on him (hopefully the sell on clause to Birmingham is not too high) Mulgrew and Kerr are just average players - I said we would struggle without a player of Barry Nic's qualities and it seems we are. Lets also not forget that for a season or 2 seve looked good in midfield - we have never replaced that either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyBiscuit Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Aluko = good signing - we will make a profit on him (hopefully the sell on clause to Birmingham is not too high) Mulgrew and Kerr are just average players - I said we would struggle without a player of Barry Nic's qualities and it seems we are. Lets also not forget that for a season or 2 seve looked good in midfield - we have never replaced that either. We have struggled for quite a few reasons so far this season, to pin it all on the absence of Nicholson is a bit much I reckon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
️ Come on you Reds! ️
️ Come on you Reds! ️
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.