Author Topic: Brexit - Will it happen  (Read 5872 times)

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Offline Kowalski

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2019, 06:53:53 PM »
I don't think it was. The No campaign was run in a very similar fashion to the EU No campaign. I disagree with Kow, in that the EU leave campaign was not project fear, it was just project lie. There was nothing fearful about the £350M on the side of the bus for example, but it was a lie. Project fear was blatantly the Remain campaign. The problem is that they failed to take the referendum seriously enough (and they were clearly a bunch that couldn't be trusted) to hammer home some of the difficulties associated with Leaving. They tried their 2014 fear approach, but it simply didn't work because nobody really trusted a word they said after at least 20-30 years of treating the electorate with contempt. When you dumb down politics (and probably education) to the extent that we have in the UK this century then feed them a bunch of pandering, half-arsed shite (on top of a decade of austerity) then the result should be fairly inevitable.

To be fair you’re probably right. Remain certainly didn’t take it seriously.

I saw a poll today where 25% of those surveyed thought “no deal” meant remaining in the EU  :hammer:

Offline Tyrant

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #101 on: January 22, 2019, 02:48:59 PM »
Are you saying that we don't pay £350m a week to the EU?


I took it to mean that the £350m that we paid to the EU being paid to the NHS instead was a lie.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #102 on: January 22, 2019, 03:37:13 PM »

I took it to mean that the £350m that we paid to the EU being paid to the NHS instead was a lie.

That was a mistake in the campaign strategy.

I saw an excellent documentary last night, part of the Imagine series. Alan Yentob was profiling James Graham, the young playwright who has genius. Benedict Cumberbatch played a fascinating role in a series I must now watch, all about the campaign manager for Leave.

The UK does pay an extraordinary amount to the EU and exiting the EU would mean that the money would be spent here, not given to them and then only some of it coming back, after all, who pays for their considerable gravy train?

It wasn't a "lie" to say that it would ALL go to the NHS because only the feeble-minded would believe that. It was a mistake to mislead the public - who are incredibly stupid - that it would all go to the NHS. The far bigger issues are that we pay too much to the EU and that our NHS is in crisis.

Unfortunately if we want to go deeper than that and examine the precise reasons why our NHS is in crisis, then we will find corruption and deliberate engineering, big  pharma costs being nothing less than extortion (facilitated by individuals in Westminster and proven by their gross (literally) profits and balance sheets let alone the disparity for the same drugs internationally), waste running unchecked, quangos and consultants getting fed, computer and database costs draining many hundreds of millions over and above what were ridiculously exorbitant tenders in the first place and many more outright strategies designed to lead us into privatisation, some of which has already happened.

Our NHS is an exact mirror of the EU and the globalist hegemony project. Where there is publicly-earned money, and MANY BILLIONS of it, let's misappropriate it for ourselves is the agenda of the few.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 03:52:40 PM by rocket_scientist »
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Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #103 on: January 23, 2019, 12:40:09 AM »
Are you saying that we don't pay £350m a week to the EU?

Rico, I just watched Brexit: The Uncivil War. It was phenomenal. Cumberbatch was brilliant.

The side of the bus actually said - We send the EU £350m a week. Let's fund our NHS instead.

It has been spin and lies from reptiles to suggest the Leave campaign said that all the money paid to the EU would be donated to the NHS. But it was clever campaigning as only a fucking half-wit could imagine that this is how budgets and financial planning works, and it is known that half-wits make up a sizeable portion of the electorate. It's not like the Leave campaign were the opposition or were ever going to be the government.

However, whether it's 350m or 300m or 250m we pay for the privilege, it's really not the point. Take back control was the point, a genius slogan devised by a genius operator, if the programme is factually correct on this particular point and I can't imagine that it wouldn't be.

The only potential "lie" peddled by the Leave campaign may have been the size of our EU payments. The fact that this alone isn't public knowledge and easily accessible by us all is a symptom of the absolute necessity that something had to change. Unfortunately the implementors of change voted Remain and are so fucking useless and corrupt, they don't know how to deliver what we voted for and are reverting to type, surreptitiously undermining the whole process. I pray to God that it's gone too far and they can't derail it but without leadership and vision, Dominic is right. It's a total fucking mess.
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Offline RicoS321

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #104 on: January 23, 2019, 11:16:27 AM »
I know what the bus said. It was a lie based on any reasonable and objective assessment. For obvious reasons. I'm surprised that you'd (or anyone would) even attempt to argue otherwise.

I enjoyed Uncivil War, but the glaring ommission of illegal funding was a little galling. Some things are too important to leave out and bought votes on either side should have been the number one focus given its impact in future elections. More so when such a slim majority is gained.

As I say, I've no issue with the concept of Brexit (no deal) at all, it just needed to be fully articulated prior to any referendum (like the independence white paper) and - in my opinion - should not have been subject to referendum at all.

That articulation should have said that our Brexit vision will consist of the following:
- Move to WTO rules
- hard border between NI and Ireland
- Freedom of movement revoked in the EU area

Again, I have no problem with the above statements at all, and all are consistent with what is now called a "no deal" brexit. Obviously the actual "white paper" would have added more detail, but these basic points would have been clear. The campaign, at no point, articulated this (even high level) detail (in fact it actively rejected the above statements on numerous occasions), which has allowed yer remainers to pish about with Deal or No Deal and "people's (wankers') vote". Without this statement of basic fact, it is very easy for remain MPs to form the opinion that at least 2% of people did not vote for the above - and I would be inclined to believe that too, thus removing any majority for a No Deal (which is exactly what I believe a vast majority of Leave voters voted for). The bottom line for Leave is, if you don't run yer campaign honestly and openly (which is very much borne out by The Uncivil War and the sloganeering highlight) then you deserve all you get when people choose to ignore the result - you give them a way in. The biggest thing that I took from the documentary is that if they actually ran a campaign clearly highlighting the above three points, I'm almost certain that they would still have won. Leave has to take the brunt of the criticism for the current shambles, they simply weren't prepared enough, not explicit enough and didn't give enough detail. It's like they didn't even believe they'd win by being honest. Stupid cunts.


Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #105 on: January 23, 2019, 12:06:40 PM »
I know what the bus said. It was a lie based on any reasonable and objective assessment. For obvious reasons. I'm surprised that you'd (or anyone would) even attempt to argue otherwise.

Which of the two statements and 12 words were a lie? Don't believe the liars.


I enjoyed Uncivil War, but the glaring ommission of illegal funding was a little galling. Some things are too important to leave out and bought votes on either side should have been the number one focus given its impact in future elections. More so when such a slim majority is gained.

Illegal funding? It's a fact of life. Money talks. You think Obama and Trump would've got office otherwise?

This pretence at fair play is quintessentially British, and it's utterly hypocritical.


As I say, I've no issue with the concept of Brexit (no deal) at all, it just needed to be fully articulated prior to any referendum (like the independence white paper) and - in my opinion - should not have been subject to referendum at all.

That articulation should have said that our Brexit vision will consist of the following:
- Move to WTO rules
- hard border between NI and Ireland
- Freedom of movement revoked in the EU area

It wasn't "fully articulated" because your government hadn't thought it through and couldn't imagine the possibility of losing.

The three points of "articulation" you gave are so obvious (to anyone even slightly thinking about the implications) that they need not say it. Not that it would have made the slightest difference if they had.


Again, I have no problem with the above statements at all, and all are consistent with what is now called a "no deal" brexit. Obviously the actual "white paper" would have added more detail, but these basic points would have been clear. The campaign, at no point, articulated this (even high level) detail (in fact it actively rejected the above statements on numerous occasions), which has allowed yer remainers to pish about with Deal or No Deal and "people's (wankers') vote". Without this statement of basic fact, it is very easy for remain MPs to form the opinion that at least 2% of people did not vote for the above - and I would be inclined to believe that too, thus removing any majority for a No Deal (which is exactly what I believe a vast majority of Leave voters voted for).

Pseudo intellectual horse manure, the same shite peddled by the MP's who want to remain and who can't see the bigger picture, unlike 52% of the electorate.


The bottom line for Leave is, if you don't run yer campaign honestly and openly (which is very much borne out by The Uncivil War and the sloganeering highlight) then you deserve all you get when people choose to ignore the result - you give them a way in.

What was dishonest? Name one act that was dishonest? I didn't see anything in the play that supports your establishment view.


The biggest thing that I took from the documentary is that if they actually ran a campaign clearly highlighting the above three points, I'm almost certain that they would still have won.

It wasn't a documentary. It was a play, with fiction included, as per the opening statement. I agree that the people would still have won if the obvious, non-contentious implications had been spelled out.


Leave has to take the brunt of the criticism for the current shambles, they simply weren't prepared enough, not explicit enough and didn't give enough detail. It's like they didn't even believe they'd win by being honest. Stupid cunts.

The current shambles is fuck all to do with the campaigners. It's wholly down to your government being inept and out of touch with the people. The Leave campaigners aren't an opposition nor are they the government. They were people charged with doing a job and by targeting people who hadn't voted before, it was a brilliant masterstroke.

The PEOPLE of the UK voted and we want out of the corruption that is the EU. Dom called Farage an odious cunt at the end of the play, and by god he is but he was absolutely 100% on the money with his abhorrence of the unelected cunts who are doing things to our world that are so vile, it's being hidden by public incredulity, including yours. We need change. The IMF and ECB and the EU are vehicles to steal. If we had an independent free press, it might expose some of the corruption at Westminster and Brussels. You lot who voted remain can't even see how our NHS and public purse is being stolen and no amount of Seabornes and Carrillions and PFI's can change your views and make you see truth. Your public school Oxford educated government are common thieves and whether "left" or "right", Blair or Cameron et al, they are ALL the same. Do you honestly believe they were in charge? Do you think Theresa is? The office of Prime Minister, like the president of the US, is not in control. The globalist agenda will fail because China and Putin never bought in and whilst the middle east has been propped up by Saudis and Qatar, that fissure is going to crack too.
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Offline RicoS321

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #106 on: January 23, 2019, 01:53:36 PM »
Which of the two statements and 12 words were a lie? Don't believe the liars.

Two statements joined together - by the word "instead" - to create one single point not to be taken separately as per the laws of the English language. One point that implies that the gross £350M is the net position after EU inward receipts. It's like taking the turnover of AFC and wondering why we can't spend it all on 3 players as if we could simply ignore paying anyone. Pretty much everyone in the leave campaign has disowned that pish, I'm not quite sure why you'd defend it.


Quote
Illegal funding? It's a fact of life. Money talks. You think Obama and Trump would've got office otherwise?

This pretence at fair play is quintessentially British, and it's utterly hypocritical.

It's not a fact of life in British elections. US elections do not have the same transparency requirements over donations and fundings. It's a massive problem, and it should have been included in the documentary.


Quote
It wasn't "fully articulated" because your government hadn't thought it through and couldn't imagine the possibility of losing.

The three points of "articulation" you gave are so obvious (to anyone even slightly thinking about the implications) that they need not say it. Not that it would have made the slightest difference if they had.

No, they weren't obvious, and were actively denied by the leave campaign. If you can find a single quote from a prominent leave campaigner who said that there would be a hard border between NI and Ireland and that was what we were voting for, I'll send you a virtual congratulation. If you can find a single interview with a Leave voter where they are asked about the inevitable hard border and what they felt the consequences of that might be, I'll send you another.


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Pseudo intellectual horse manure, the same shite peddled by the MP's who want to remain and who can't see the bigger picture, unlike 52% of the electorate.

I don't think you even believe that 52% of the electorate "could see the bigger picture" in your own terms.

Quote
What was dishonest? Name one act that was dishonest? I didn't see anything in the play that supports your establishment view.

It's an established view, not an establishment. I don't change my views because people I don't like agree with me. The play showed a campaign built on slogans and deliberate vagueness - i.e. dishonest. Not setting out their plan post Brexit was dishonest. Everything about it was dishonest, because it wasn't honest. Compare it with the indy ref as an example, and it was night and day.

Quote
The current shambles is fuck all to do with the campaigners. It's wholly down to your government being inept and out of touch with the people. The Leave campaigners aren't an opposition nor are they the government. They were people charged with doing a job and by targeting people who hadn't voted before, it was a brilliant masterstroke.

That it was a brilliant campaign only tells us that it was a brilliant campaign. The malboro man didn't make smoking any healthier, but by fuck it sold cigarettes.

Quote
The PEOPLE of the UK voted and we want out of the corruption that is the EU. Dom called Farage an odious cunt at the end of the play, and by god he is but he was absolutely 100% on the money with his abhorrence of the unelected cunts who are doing things to our world that are so vile, it's being hidden by public incredulity, including yours. We need change. The IMF and ECB and the EU are vehicles to steal. If we had an independent free press, it might expose some of the corruption at Westminster and Brussels. You lot who voted remain can't even see how our NHS and public purse is being stolen and no amount of Seabornes and Carrillions and PFI's can change your views and make you see truth. Your public school Oxford educated government are common thieves and whether "left" or "right", Blair or Cameron et al, they are ALL the same. Do you honestly believe they were in charge? Do you think Theresa is? The office of Prime Minister, like the president of the US, is not in control. The globalist agenda will fail because China and Putin never bought in and whilst the middle east has been propped up by Saudis and Qatar, that fissure is going to crack too.

None of this I would disagree with (most of it unaffected by EU membership) apart from the bit in bold (I don't believe that 52% voted out for that reason), hence why I didn't vote to remain. I feel let down by the Leave campaign as they didn't articulate a plan for post-Brexit and have left themselves open to the current situation. No amount of your ranting against the establishment changes that. They're campaign was childish and inarticulate and it will fuck them over. There won't be a no-deal Brexit and that is the issue I have with it. They should have taken a leaf out of Scotland's book, produced a manifesto and trusted in their ability to deliver it. They didn't and will lose because of that.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #107 on: January 23, 2019, 02:43:46 PM »
Two statements joined together - by the word "instead" - to create one single point not to be taken separately as per the laws of the English language. One point that implies that the gross £350M is the net position after EU inward receipts. It's like taking the turnover of AFC and wondering why we can't spend it all on 3 players as if we could simply ignore paying anyone. Pretty much everyone in the leave campaign has disowned that pish, I'm not quite sure why you'd defend it.

We send the EU £350m a week. Let's fund our NHS instead.

That's what it said.

The remainers are so sore that they're clutching at straws and making excuses, just as you've done by twisting the record.

Who gives a fuck about implied? It was excellent campaigning.

The first was a statement of fact (that we pay an exorbitant amount to the EU).

The next five words was a proposal, a bloody good one. We should be looking after our own affairs INSTEAD to donating exorbitant amounts to fund a project that is doomed to fail.

We are not on the same page, not even in the same library. rather than go round in circles, let's agree to disagree,
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Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #108 on: January 23, 2019, 03:38:15 PM »
Sky News and that cow Burley are filming from the Irish border today. It's become a big issue, this "backstop", one of the biggest.

Voting to leave the EU means that we "we take back control of our borders", as hatchet face repeated ad nauseam. So control them. This means that everyone coming here has a right to be here, including refugees. Have a policy. Do tour fucking work, government. The problem here is that hatchet face paid a billion to Arlene Foster and is beholden to the DUP in parliament.

It's a fucking mess, total mismanagement by an incompetent and corrupt government.
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Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #109 on: January 23, 2019, 03:45:47 PM »
The unelected rubber-faced EU officials are ALL consistent when the Brits stick a camera and a microphone in their faces. They don't want us to leave. They are project fearing us to change the democratic referendum.

Doesn't anyone wonder WHY the EU are desperate to hold on to us? Do you remember Cameron, pathetically pleading to us not to vote for independence? Did anyone ask WHY he was equally desperate? It's very simple. The bigger the organisation, the easier it is to get off with what they've been getting off with. Where was the follow up when that wifie on Question Time revealed that Cameron's father-in-law was the biggest beneficiary of EU wind farm technology grants?

Scotland staying in the UK and Britain staying in the EU benefits the bigger organisation and handicaps the smaller. It was ever thus. Unfortunately us Scots and we in the NE of Scotland are so fucking thick we voted No and returned Tories at the last GE. It's a fucking shambles, brought upon by ourselves. Either you can't see what's going on or you refuse to believe it. As Adolf said, the biggest lies shall be hidden by public incredulity.
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Offline manc_don

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #110 on: January 24, 2019, 07:04:32 PM »
I see, Dyson, a brexiteer, is moving production of Dyson abroad  :rofl: you couldn't make it up

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #111 on: January 24, 2019, 07:38:23 PM »
I see, Dyson, a brexiteer, is moving production of Dyson abroad  :rofl: you couldn't make it up

Don't believe the establishment and the remain agenda but even the BBC got this one right. It's a transfer of two executives to Singapore and a new global HQ. The 4,000 production staff in the U.K. are unaffected. Dyson is a massive success story for Britain and he has done brilliant both for himself and the country. Given where the business planning of any major company will be, Asia becoming the biggest market, it makes sense that the HQ is over there. China is the biggest opportunity and growth potential not just for Dyson but many other western companies.

It's because he voted Brexit that the establishment tried to spin this against both him and us, the people who voted Leave. Plus a bit of the tall poppy syndrome at its heart, only the bitter, the weak and the useless being jealous of the success of true pioneers. Dyson is a genius and his products are the best in field.
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Offline donsdaft

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #112 on: January 30, 2019, 04:50:58 PM »
Well, despite what it looks like, I reckon the tory fascist bastards now realise they've lost.

It got to the stage where they were in danger of destroying the party so they've actually been very clever.

They know damn well that they will never get the concessions they require ( the complete capitulation they demand really)

So

Now they can blame Johnnie Foriegner, "They had it in for us, they wouldn't listen to reason"


They'll never get no deal straight through parliament but they will get a second referendum .
No deal v Remain

This is what the arseholes were voting for last time and May started campaigning weeks ago hence her little roadshows instead of wasting her time trying to change the minds of politicians.

1/ We vote remain
It wasn't their fault, the tory party stick together ( live to fight another day)

2/ We vote leave
God forbid, but the gallant tory party are the only people to see us through the dark days ahead.
Prepare for ultra right wing politics and strangely enough all the leading brexiteers making a lot of money.

Teresa May - gone either way
Boris Johnstone- He's trying to be Donald Trump, he's two years too late

Jacob Rees Mogg is sounding more statesmanlike every day and after his pathetic show of loyalty, Michael Gove will be crawling around near the top.

Offline RicoS321

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #113 on: January 30, 2019, 07:40:23 PM »
They'll never get no deal straight through parliament but they will get a second referendum .
No deal v Remain

Correct me if I'm wrong, but no deal is exactly what it says isn't it? We just leave. In other words, it doesn't require to get through parliament, it just happens on leave day (at least that's the way it should happen).

Offline Kowalski

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #114 on: January 30, 2019, 08:46:12 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but no deal is exactly what it says isn't it? We just leave. In other words, it doesn't require to get through parliament, it just happens on leave day (at least that's the way it should happen).

That’s correct.

Last nights votes were a farce. Conservatives putting their party first before the country. But it’s what the happy clappers voted for.

Offline RicoS321

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #115 on: January 30, 2019, 09:06:03 PM »
That’s correct.

Last nights votes were a farce. Conservatives putting their party first before the country. But it’s what the happy clappers voted for.

But they are the majority voting block (with a bit of DUP thrown in), so their party is representative of the voting public at the last GE in theory.

Offline donsdaft

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #116 on: January 30, 2019, 10:37:05 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but no deal is exactly what it says isn't it? We just leave. In other words, it doesn't require to get through parliament, it just happens on leave day (at least that's the way it should happen).



Aye but if it looks like no deal then they can revoke article 50


Best not to listen to May, she’s a lying cow.
She used to say that it couldn’t be revoked.

Offline Kowalski

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Re: Brexit - Will it happen
« Reply #117 on: February 05, 2019, 05:53:54 PM »