SCOTTISH football last night stood on the brink of revolution amid fears more than one SPL club is going to the wall.

 

Record Sport understands a move towards the restructuring of the SPL will start as soon as this season's championship and relegation issues have been decided.

 

Concerned chairmen have been holding emergency talks in secret for weeks. Matters are now coming to a head in advance of financial figures being released which will show the catastrophe that's on the way unless the Top Twelve is expanded into an 18-team league.

 

SPL chairmen met at Hampden yesterday as calls mounted for a change of direction and even the SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster has now publicly admitted the split isn't the answer to falling crowds and declining standards.

 

One concerned club spokesman said: "There are balance-sheet figures about to come out which are appalling.

 

"Clubs will go to the wall. unless there's change across the board, and soon.

 

"We can't go on paying salaries that the clubs just can't afford. Income must become relative to clubs' expenditure.

 

"Chairmen have been talking to each other in the background but it would be inappropriate to speak out before the major issues have been settled.

 

"Scottish football needs restructuring because the game is the big picture.

 

"If you sort out the product then the financial picture gets better in time.

 

"It might be sore to begin with, and income might drop by as much as 30 per cent, but if we don't take steps to find our true level then there will be serious consequences."

 

Rangers manager Walter Smith has already stated his preference for an 18-team Premier League, reducing the number of fixtures to 34.

 

That would take away the complaint that the same teams are meeting each other too many times during the season.

 

Support for that change to the current system was growing last night .

 

Formal moves to alter the structure of the SPL and redraw the remainder of the clubs in the Scottish Football League are now only a matter of weeks away.

 

Taken from the Daily Retard so may be utter bollocks, but I certainly hope not.

Milne still seems keen on 10 or 12.

 

I'd like a bigger league but he still persists with the line that an expanded top league isn't financially viable.

Milne still seems keen on 10 or 12.

 

I'd like a bigger league but he still persists with the line that an expanded top league isn't financially viable.

8-8-8 just sounds like nonsense to me.  I agree with CtS, I can't stand the split and if they are going to re-organise the league and introduce another split then Scottish Fitba will just look stupid.

 

Top league of 16 or 18 for me.  Couldn't give a fuck if places are attractive to travel to or not.

 

 

It's not just whether places are attractive to travel to. Our home crowds (never mind the away "support" that visits Pittodrie) will plummet if we replace games against Hearts, United and Hibs, never mind the OF, with Raith, Hamilton, Cowdenbeath etc.  And that's not even mentioning the loss of 3 home games.

 

To have  16/18 team league you need 20+ teams capable of playing in the top league, Scotland isn't big enough for this.

 

The split, I think, has worked pretty well, most seasons we have had competitve end of season games with bigger crowds as those fighting it out for Europe/Relegation/Title are facing each other in the run in.  I'd be amazed if anyone outside Scotland even knew we had a split, never mind thinking it's stupid

Fuck the monetary system.

the main thing is competition. a league with 3 or 4 games against the same opposition necessarily is weighted in favour of celtic (and previously rangers), and means that teams evolve unavoidably towards a greater imbalance.

 

 

you 'budget' for a defeat against the teams like celtic, and treat any points gained from them as a bonus. naturally then, the gap the smaller squad has to overcome is increased with the more games there are against them.

 

 

it's not a fluke that we are more uncompetitive than ever now, and have been increasingly so ever since the top flight was reduced.

 

 

i completely disagree that it's less attractive to go to hamilton once, rather than kilmarnock twice for eg, or that there will be less 'meaningful' games than currently. but if fans really aren't going to travel to support their team against a greater number of teams then fair enough, that'll give us the league that's natural based on the level of cuntishness in the population. but small leagues with no hope of winning anything is a failed system.

it's not a fluke that we are more uncompetitive than ever now, and have been increasingly so ever since the top flight was reduced.

 

The two aren't necessarily linked though are they?

 

The ugly sister will have an advantage, a natural one based upon income which makes the league system somewhat irrelevant really.

 

It would take something pretty special to properly challenge them over the course of a whole season and then keep the players that did it regardless of the system. The winning of the league at present is also fairly irrelevant, it's making it worth seeing, competitiveness and attractive football and value for money, largely speaking none of which exist at the moment.

 

The SPL has failed. Perhaps a very simple structure as CTS says will be something that we can all start again with because all this splitting, 1 of 12, 3 of 8, 1of 16 or 14, baws.

 

Play offs for relegation/promotion definitely seems a good idea but we should be careful when talking about the English system as a template, aye it's relatively simple but it's also swimming in cash, at the moment.

 

 

btr, the main attraction of a 16 team league for me (as a fan) is quite straight forward.  More variety, less repetitive, and a sensible straightforward league format that doesn't further humiliate scottish football to outside observers.  Any kind of split mid-season is wrong in my opinion. 

 

 

I haven't really got answers about 'the national team' and 'finances', but I'm guessing both those issues are at an all time low anyway, and I can't see how an 8-8-8 set up would improve those situations either?

 

 

We need a pyramid system like the english fa, whereby ambitious amateur clubs (like the rangers  ) can start at the very bottom and work their way up. In fact the whole english set up should be a model for the future of our game, albeit on a smaller scale.

 

Ironically enough, I actually believe that introducing more wee teams to the top flight actually will make it more repetitive.  Quality will be poorer, attendance will be lower, sponsorship will decline and the big teams will just get further and further away.

 

The Old Firm will still get their away games televised every week, and there will be a spike for teams like Hamilton Accies and Livingston who'll have their day in the sun somewhere down the line, but there's nothing in there that's going to improve prospects for Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Hearts, Hibs - the traditional non-OF big clubs, or Motherwell or Kilmarnock or St Johnstone etc.  The rich will stay rich, some of the wee clubs will get a bit more money but the others in the middle will see no discernible change in quality, spectator experience, or revenue.

 

The national team wont benefit at all because overall quality will be poorer.

 

How many countries with a demographic and climate like Scotland have a 16 or 18 league top-flight set up?

 

One way of looking at the 8-8-8 set up is that it is a quasi-16-team-league.  Four teams from the lower division of 12 will get to play 14 games against those who drop down with the opportunity to make the top 12 much easier than would normally be possible.  Every game will be meaningful. I've seen a quote that this structure was adopted in Austria in the 90s and that it was "boring".  Well, I've been to Vienna and it is the dullest city I've visited so I'll take their opinion with a vat of salt.

 

I agree with the pyramid structure, and that is what should be in place below a 2-division, 24-team (or whatever) SPFL.  This country of 5 million people and 42 professional clubs is unsustainable.  There are only around 22 full-time clubs in Scotland.  Let the full-time clubs flourish and let the part-time clubs aspire to making the big time.  I think what we would end up seeing, in due course, would be mergers, new teams being created from the lower leagues in an effort to make the big league.  I'm not talking about a Gretna, but say an East Kilbride, or a North Ayrshire (Irvine), or a Glenrothes - big-gish towns un-represented in professional football.

 

The argument, that a 16 team league is better because it's the least embarrassing option, is itself embarrassing.  If we all had attitudes like that, we'd still be living in fucking caves. Mind you, I've been in Padre's flat....

it's not a fluke that we are more uncompetitive than ever now, and have been increasingly so ever since the top flight was reduced.

But are we? We won the league once in 55, in an 18 team league, then 3 times in the 80's (icluding the only non-of double) in leagues of 10 or 12.

 

League size hasn't made us more uncompetitive, it's the divide brought about by the McCanns and Murrays of this world, Scottish football "journalism" and the ridiculous amount of money generated by two clubs compared to all the others (whether it be from TV, Sponsorship, merchandising (via-whatever-means), alleged tax avoidance, playing the caflik/proddy/we're-picked-on card))

 

It's the same all the way down the SPL and SFL structure. We make more than, say, Brechin, so it's unlikely that Brechin will ever have a period of sustained competitiveness with us, and without mad billionaire sugar-daddies it's going to stay that way.

 

League reconstruction may make for more "meaningful" matches, but we know, fucking sticks in my throat (as it were) to type, we know ultimately the 2 big clubs will always dominate no matter what the structure, and the most we can expect is more competitive cup games (with a few different winners) and an occasional "blue moon" league winner (basically as it has been all my life and probably since the 1920s if not before)

 

The best we could hope for would be the complete and utter winding up of both glasgow arsecheeks (which will never happen) the loss of their knuckledragging-lost-in-the-mists-of-religious-fervour-forever-and-keep-spreading-it-through-progeny support (never going to happen either) or some sort of draconian wage/spending cap (another never gonna......)

 

SPL/SFL reconstruction will only really benefit the yo-yo clubs forever floating between the SPL/SFL1; SFL1/2 and SFL2/3, and any current non-league sides with ambitions to join the big leagues.

And tbf for a lot of the current top junior/HFL/ESL etc teams, unless there's some sort of regionalisation the travelling expenses and associated logistical nightmares (especially midweek, postponements, replays etc) mens this is probably not a viable solution for many of them.

 

Do I have a solution? I wish

Some good points in there MBT, but this one:

some sort of draconian wage/spending cap (another never gonna......)

I agree, it is not workable at all in this day and age with EU regulations etc.  BUT (you may tell me that I'm wrong) in America, isn't it the MLS who pays the players rather than the clubs?  If this is the case, could a creative wage structure be put in place?  Clubs pay a proportion of gate receipts and forego a deal of sponsorhip in order to have a zero wage-bill?

MBT, the Old Firm generate more cash because there's fucking many more thousands of them prepared to pay them money.

I think I kinda alluded to that TF

and the ridiculous amount of money generated by two clubs compared to all the others (whether it be from TV, Sponsorship, merchandising (via-whatever-means), alleged tax avoidance, playing the caflik/proddy/we're-picked-on card))

It's the single biggest factor, maybe the only important one.

Similar to the earlier point about more games Vs Celtic leading to more imbalance, tf, the larger number of people paying to go to the tattiedome is also a factor that is not itself strictly necessary to bring about this situation we're in, but they certainly are factors that, added onto all the other various factors, do bring us to where we are now.

 

 

On the specific point of the larger number of fans though, my main problem is with the self-perpetuation of it. TV adverts show celtic and rangers, kids see that and consciously/sub-consciously feel they have to pick a side. Even this season the ESPN ads say "ESPN bring you the Old Firm this season". The excuse is that it's what viewers want. So it continues, creating new fans to make what was initially a bullshit excuse become true. And resulting in more people in Aberdeen, Dundee etc etc walking around dressed up like the worst of the weegies.

 

 

We can restructure all we like, but at the end of the day we'll only get, at best, a least worst situation, because the one necessary factor in creating the current system has been the extreme-capitalism within sport (which in all seriousness is the practical definition of fascism).

 

 

Celtic and rangers had the money at the right moment to buy the influence and alter the structure of Scottish football so as to ensure they'd grow while others wilted. Until sport balances the power so as to be about grassroots fitness, community involvement, national economic spending (inter-city tourism), and generally just having a good fucking day oot, basically we'll stay as fucked as we currently are, or worse.

No sure I understand that at all Mav, they have many more fans and always have and will for the foreseeable and that ultimately gives them a colossal advantage.

 

As far as community involvement is concerned they invest a fucking fortune in community coaching, whatever we may want to think about them.

 

Yes the media want to talk about fuck all else, it sells whatever form of media they are peddling.

 

But yes, the best we can hope for is a least worst scenario, the game is largely unattractive and very poor value for the ticket money.

 

 

SPL clubs pursue plan for two divisions of 12 teamsScottish Premier League clubs have "unanimously" agreed to pursue their plan to expand the top flight to two divisions of 12 teams.[/size]

Chief executive Neil Doncaster says the present 12 clubs were united at their meeting at Hampden Park.

[/size]They will now propose what they describe as their 24-18 model to the Scottish Football League and Scottish Football Association on Thursday.

[/size]The 18 refers to the remaining SFL clubs not included in the top leagues.

[/size]More to follow.[/size]

[/size]http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20581620

[/size]

SPL clubs pursue plan for two divisions of 12 teamsScottish Premier League clubs have "unanimously" agreed to pursue their plan to expand the top flight to two divisions of 12 teams.

[/color]Chief executive Neil Doncaster says the present 12 clubs were united at their meeting at Hampden Park.

[/color]They will now propose what they describe as their 24-18 model to the Scottish Football League and Scottish Football Association on Thursday.The 18 refers to the remaining SFL clubs not included in the top leagues.More to follow.

 

 

lolz

Yas, that worked on the preview.

Same happened to me this morning! Bloody BBC site! 

SPL clubs pursue plan for two divisions of 12 teamsScottish Premier League clubs have "unanimously" agreed to pursue their plan to expand the top flight to two divisions of 12 teams.

[/color]Chief executive Neil Doncaster says the present 12 clubs were united at their meeting at Hampden Park.

[/color]They will now propose what they describe as their 24-18 model to the Scottish Football League and Scottish Football Association on Thursday.The 18 refers to the remaining SFL clubs not included in the top leagues.More to follow.

 

 

Clowns ban this mod.

Story in the Herald suggesting the SPL and SFL are close to agreeing a new combined League set up of 12 12 18 with a more equitable split of the cash. No plans to parachute The Rangers up the table so in theory they would still be in the bottom tier if the change is brought in for next season as hoped.  No mention of whether this includes the 8 8 8 split as originally planned by the SPL

The former Scottish FA chief executive told BBC Scotland that the format of two top leagues of 12 which splits into three leagues of eight had been tried - and ended - in Switzerland and Austria.

 

"They tried it for about six or seven years. It's not there any longer," he said.

 

"They changed back to a 12-10 and then regional football."

 

"You don't have to repeat the mistakes of others.

Not sure we should listen to someone who can't count. both their top-flights are 10 teams.

 

I would love to see us have a regional system in place below two divisions plus a sort of conference premier though. Think it could give local football a real boost all over the country.

Story in the Herald suggesting the SPL and SFL are close to agreeing a new combined League set up of 12 12 18 with a more equitable split of the cash. No plans to parachute The Rangers up the table so in theory they would still be in the bottom tier if the change is brought in for next season as hoped.  No mention of whether this includes the 8 8 8 split as originally planned by the SPL

 

Record the same today

 

 

RANGERS could romp the Third Division and still end up in the bottom tier next season if a plan to

reconstruct the Scottish game is given the go-ahead.

 

SFL chief David Longmuir last night spoke to Record Sport as he attempts to broker agreement to do away with the current set-up and start again with a new three league 12-12-18 structure.

 

The deal would see the SPL and SFL merge into one body with Longmuir’s clubs sharing around £1million in extra TV revenue.

 

And he confirmed this could happen at the start of next season – meaning Ally McCoist’s side starting out at the bottom all over again – even if they wrap up this season’s title.

 

But Longmuir explained: “This isn’t about one club. This is about what is best for all of Scottish football.

 

“People are getting ahead of themselves a little bit because no decisions have been taken with regards to how the new leagues would be made up.

 

“But if you look at the league tables as they stand today it doesn’t take much imagination to work out how to make it happen.

 

“Yes, that might be disappointing for some clubs in the Second and Third divisions if it was to work out that way but then we are talking about the long-term good of the game here.

 

“If change is going to happen then inevitably there would have to be one season when adjustments would have to be made. That adjustment has to come at some stage.”

 

Longmuir had previously pushed for a far more radical shake-up that would have created a 16-10-16 set-up.

 

But the SPL clubs are refusing to go along with his vision along with some clubs from the First Division and so a compromise solution is now being thrashed out.

 

And Longmuir – likely to land a key role in any future new governing body – said: “I’ve made my own views known and I always backed a structure of 16-10-16.

 

“But people can get very hung up on the structures and the numbers.

 

“What we have to do is find a way of moving the game in this country forward – how to make the wealth more evenly distributed and how to make the game better for everybody.”

The Rangers fans will be seething no doubt which makes it all worthwhile

I personally don't have too much of an issue with the current split set up and would probably prefer to cw that in the top league, and maybe even the 2nd tier rather than the 8-8-8 idea.  The biggest thing that needs changing is the abolition of the spl and the merging of the SPL and SFL which should in time mean less decisions made by the few to the detriment of the whole and perhaps a more favourable league set up and pyramid system.

The other thing that MUST change and will give the variety folk crave is more relegation/promotion places as that, as much as the 12 team set up perpetuates the staleness of the spl.

BBC:

 

"Both Scottish league bodies have agreed in principle to a restructuring plan that would see the organisations merge in a 12-12-18 structure.

 

Both sets of clubs have still to vote on the proposals but a major breakthrough was made on Tuesday during a meeting of the main decision-makers in the Scottish Premier League, Scottish Football League and the Scottish Football Association."

Only thing of merit in the proposal is the creation of one governing body. Rest is pish. There is a good article on The Away End site that lays out failings of latest plan better than I can.