mizer Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Pars fans are all fuckin morons I have to disagree, know quite a few of them and good lads Think it would have been extremely unfair to give any of those youngsters the burden of trying to carry the more experienced players Mizer. Theres a fine line between giving them experience and putting a heavy weight on their shoulders. What?! I think any of the young guys would have loved to have a chance to come on and play against a team who were not playing great and show how good they were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboisared Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I have to disagree, know quite a few of them and good lads What?! I think any of the young guys would have loved to have a chance to come on and play against a team who were not playing great and show how good they were. The players they would have been looking to help them weren't able to sort themselves out that game. Not everyone has the debut that Rooney had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyBiscuit Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 All very true however I'm not entirely convinced that we have inside knowledge of the management teams decision making criteria where youth is concerned. We don't have it anywhere. While I agree that it would be good to see young players getting a chance there is almost no evidence to suggest that JC has made the wrong decisions about other youth players he has chosen to keep out of the first team set up. If Young is 'ahead of youth players' in the queue then its because he doesn't think they are ready for the first team. I'd be interested to hear what examples you cite to support the notion that these decisions are incorrect. I can see your point here and it's almost the case that we cant challenge it. But the problem with that is that the young players are few and far between. I doubt, and I seriously do doubt for a number of reasons that Derek Young is considerably better than "the best" of our youth products. Whether you're a JMG-er or not, it must worry you that so few of our youth products have had a chance in the first team. In fact, looking back, he is the manager who has least promoted our youth system out of them all. Porterfield through to Paterson used it, but he basically hasn't. That is a worry. We know it's been overhauled, but it surely hasn't been as negligent as that...? In fact, we know it hasn't, as we have Paton, Pawlett and Crawford from it. I fear he won't use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizer Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 The players they would have been looking to help them weren't able to sort themselves out that game. Not everyone has the debut that Rooney had. You failed at standard grade English then? As for players to help I take it you mean the strikers? They were the worst and should have hooked. If you cant play youngsters against Hamilton when the fuck can you play them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboisared Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 You failed at standard grade English then? As for players to help I take it you mean the strikers? They were the worst and should have hooked. If you cant play youngsters against Hamilton when the fuck can you play them? Sorry Mizer, didn't realise Standard Grade English was compulsory for Donstalk. Preferably when we're 3-0 up against Kilmarnock on Saturday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyBiscuit Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 You failed at standard grade English then? As for players to help I take it you mean the strikers? They were the worst and should have hooked. If you cant play youngsters against Hamilton when the fuck can you play them? Should have hooked what? Or what level of English did you fail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizer Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Should have hooked what? Or what level of English did you fail? I got one of the worst marks ever for my English higher first time round I blame my slip on Northfield quine phoning me up to tell me I owe her £30 for the Scotland v Iceland game - its a fucking midweek game! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyBiscuit Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I got one of the worst marks ever for my English higher first time round I blame my slip on Northfield quine phoning me up to tell me I owe her £30 for the Scotland v Iceland game - its a fucking midweek game! a) I'm not surprised. b) You go to Scotland matches. Idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizer Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 a) I'm not surprised. b) You go to Scotland matches. Idiot. Only as an excuse to wear my kilt (wheres jager at ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyBiscuit Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Only as an excuse to wear my kilt (wheres jager at ) You shouldn't need one. I don't need an excuse to wear trousers, ye know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizer Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 You shouldn't need one. I don't need an excuse to wear trousers, ye know? You wear trousers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyBiscuit Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 You wear trousers Yeah. You wear a skirt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TENEMENTFUNSTER Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Mizer gets to wear a kilt, aka skirt and show off the legendary "Mangina" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizer Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Mizer gets to wear a kilt, aka skirt and show off the legendary "Mangina" At least I dont use Nivea shampoo like someone in the Aberdeen dressing room! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TENEMENTFUNSTER Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Is there something wrong with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajja Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 We don't have it anywhere. I can see your point here and it's almost the case that we cant challenge it. But the problem with that is that the young players are few and far between. I doubt, and I seriously do doubt for a number of reasons that Derek Young is considerably better than "the best" of our youth products. Whether you're a JMG-er or not, it must worry you that so few of our youth products have had a chance in the first team. In fact, looking back, he is the manager who has least promoted our youth system out of them all. Porterfield through to Paterson used it, but he basically hasn't. That is a worry. We know it's been overhauled, but it surely hasn't been as negligent as that...? In fact, we know it hasn't, as we have Paton, Pawlett and Crawford from it. I fear he won't use them. It worries me a great deal and I am not trying to argue that its acceptable that we do not appear willing to run a conveyor belt of youth players through to first team level. In fact if you look back over history you would find me arguing a similar issue. However, my real worry is that we do not actually have enough of these guys who are deemed good enough to come through as opposed to making the simple leap that Calderwood is making a conscious decision to restrict their talents in favour of SPL journeymen. This may be the case but we make the assumption lightly in my opinion. The finer detail of my point is that we can only presume to know the reasons why we are not seeing youth players given opportunity. Its easy to say its JC not being willing but we don't know enough about it to make that assertion in my mind. I'm much more in favour of looking at what we do know to shape opinion and what we do know is that the list of youth players who have gone out the back of the factory door having failed to live up to their billing is reasonably long. The other list....the starlets, the jewels, those nuggets of gold who will light up Pittodrie...thats not a long list. Now you can go as far as to say that JC/the club management in general have failed to bring these players on if you want to strip it right back. However, to draw the conclusion that this is all about Calderwood strangling talent seems to be based on nothing other than some idylic dream that taking a punt on some young guys in place of a squad set up that has us challenging for the best we can hope for this season (3rd and a cup win) will somehow reap greater rewards. Its too easy to have authority without responsibility. As fans we can draw assertions based on romance, we can make demands based on ideology we can scream for change just for the sake of it because we don't have to deliver anything other than our undying support for the club. The club manager(s) are positioned differently and they have much more information at hand and much more to lose if they get it wrong. I've lost myself now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneZero Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Comprehensively agree, would get lost if went into more detail as had too much whisky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TENEMENTFUNSTER Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Probably one of the best and most considered posts ever on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizer Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 However, to draw the conclusion that this is all about Calderwood strangling talent seems to be based on nothing other than some idylic dream that taking a punt on some young guys in place of a squad set up that has us challenging for the best we can hope for this season (3rd and a cup win) will somehow reap greater rewards. Its not like that at all ajja. If you want to live in a world where we follow the great leader and think his commandments are always correct I suggest you nip off to North Korea. Lets look at the only youth player to come through and get games under Calderwoods tenure at Pittodrie I can think of at the moment - Maguire. He is not a winger, he is a striker and he is shit out on the wing but he is continually played out there. last week when he was given his chance up front he took it and that seems to have gave him a heap of confidence in the last game against Utd where he had one of his best ever games for us. As for the 'idyllic dream', I dont think that by bringing on these young players we will find the next Willie Miller or Frank MacDougal but if they have to be better than Derek Young and should be subbed on in games like Hamilton where the first team players were gash/recovering from a heavy cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TENEMENTFUNSTER Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 And so soon afterwards we have the polar opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajja Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Its not like that at all ajja. If you want to live in a world where we follow the great leader and think his commandments are always correct I suggest you nip off to North Korea. Lets look at the only youth player to come through and get games under Calderwoods tenure at Pittodrie I can think of at the moment - Maguire. He is not a winger, he is a striker and he is shit out on the wing but he is continually played out there. last week when he was given his chance up front he took it and that seems to have gave him a heap of confidence in the last game against Utd where he had one of his best ever games for us. As for the 'idyllic dream', I dont think that by bringing on these young players we will find the next Willie Miller or Frank MacDougal but if they have to be better than Derek Young and should be subbed on in games like Hamilton where the first team players were gash/recovering from a heavy cold. I'm not proposing blind faith, I'm merely saying that without the inside knowledge of how our youth players are performing in all aspects of their development and without much in the way of compelling evidence to suggest a path of failure so far we should try to trust the management on this issue. If things take a serious change then I am right behind you on calling for change in the team. Just be wary of hanging your hat on the idea that with fresh young blood comes any guarantee of success. Lets also not forget that Young is not actually getting much of a game in the 1st team either so its difficult to argue he is ahead of the youth as the current first team set up are doing an acceptable job in the current climate. He is just a very cheap gap filler at a time when we have to be prudent with our budgets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGB Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 The way I look at it is that Young is a squad utility player who can be played with varying degrees of succes in a number of different positions. This makes him valuable in an era where squads are much smaller and budgets are tight. His presence in the squad does not preclude any talented youngster from breaking through into the team, if they are good enough. To hold the view that his presence in some way does halt the progress of youth has to be based on the belief that Calderwood would somehow always play a journeyman squad player over a genuinely talented younger player who would be a superstar were they just given their chance. In my opinion this just doesn't happen and it is in fact the lack of quality coming through our youth ranks, not the lack of opportunity, which is the crux of the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ally s Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I'm not proposing blind faith, I'm merely saying that without the inside knowledge of how our youth players are performing in all aspects of their development and without much in the way of compelling evidence to suggest a path of failure so far we should try to trust the management on this issue. If things take a serious change then I am right behind you on calling for change in the team. Just be wary of hanging your hat on the idea that with fresh young blood comes any guarantee of success. Lets also not forget that Young is not actually getting much of a game in the 1st team either so its difficult to argue he is ahead of the youth as the current first team set up are doing an acceptable job in the current climate. He is just a very cheap gap filler at a time when we have to be prudent with our budgets. You're my internet hero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizer Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I'm not proposing blind faith, I'm merely saying that without the inside knowledge of how our youth players are performing in all aspects of their development and without much in the way of compelling evidence to suggest a path of failure so far we should try to trust the management on this issue. If things take a serious change then I am right behind you on calling for change in the team. Just be wary of hanging your hat on the idea that with fresh young blood comes any guarantee of success. Lets also not forget that Young is not actually getting much of a game in the 1st team either so its difficult to argue he is ahead of the youth as the current first team set up are doing an acceptable job in the current climate. He is just a very cheap gap filler at a time when we have to be prudent with our budgets. I lost my faith in the management team judgement quite a few years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edinburghdon Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I lost my faith in the management team judgement quite a few years ago. Really? you should have said, voice your discontent! Got to admit I agree pretty much wholeheartedly with Ajja here, I don't think Calderwood can be blamed totally for the lack of opportunities the younger players have been getting. Without seeing these players training day in day out i don't think that we can properly judge whether or not they deserve more opportunities in the 1st team. And one thing that really does my head in, is anyone who Isn't totally anti Calderwood is deemed to think the sun shines out of his arse. Believe it or not it is possible to fall in between the "JIG" and "JMG" camps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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️ Come on you Reds! ️
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