Livingston v Aberdeen

[RicoS321]

44 minutes ago, The.Moog said:

I’d like to see what Aremu can do when fully fit with a proper Robinson pre season under his belt. Juries out, but he was very good first half last night then fell out the game cause he’s not fit enough.

Agree totally on Knoester. Good footballer but not suited to this league. I’d probably keep him as he’s a good option but we need 3 new CH’s for next year.

Not having a go, genuinely interested in what exactly you see in Milne?

He’s not that young, at 23 you should really be an established first team player if you have anything about you, he’s terrible in the air for a boy his size, lacks physicality and aggression for a boy of his size, he’s not great technically, his distribution is poor as is his positioning and reading of the game.

Apart from that…

Gogic isn’t by any stretch a long term fix, but he’s miles better in this league than anyone we’ve got at the back just now. Genuine 7 out of 10 every week.

I’d have him as he’d improve us at the back immediately. We’re not fixing all our issues in one window so we need some solid experienced proven SPFL pros to help with the turnaround, and he ticks that box for me…

Gogic is better than what we've got, but it would have to be to replace Milne, because he's very right sided. He's also a bit of a liability at times, as he has the tendency to go for things he's never getting and relies on his blood and thunder approach rather than good positioning. He's like the Shinnie of defence! As much as I like watching him when he's not playing for us, because he's entertaining, I'd probably prefer we had someone more orthodox. 

As for Milne, he reminds me of Considine when he broke through. Had the physical attributes, but just not able to use them yet. It's his first season, he's a Dandy, and I want him to succeed and be given every opportunity to succeed. He was very good on the ball when he first came through, his unsettled performances got him panicking on the ball a bit, with the fullback also not showing for it, and he's trying wild passes that he's capable of, but not with any consistency. He's a much better footballer than he's showing. Jack Hendry went through a similar period at his age, it's not unusual for a defender, and I think if we stick with him he'll return the confidence shown with continuous improvement. I hope we take the time with one of our own. 

2 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

I’d put my money more on knoester than Milne, what if we had a legit player alongside knoester?

Yep, I think Knoester would do well with someone that really attacked the ball alongside him. I think that would probably see the end of Milne at Pittodrie, at an important stage of his development, that's all. I don't think Knoester is the right type of player to improve Milne, and it'd be nice to have a strategy for bringing players through, including dragging them through difficult patches. If we can't develop a player with the attributes that Milne has, recognising his weaknesses, then we should probably just pack up the youth setup. 

[STFU_Donny]

2 hours ago, swaddon said:

I won't be satisfied that we won't be in the play-offs until even Rachel Riley can't work out how it is mathematically possible.

I remember Hibs. They thought they would be safe and then they pulled off the ultimate Hibsing.

With our superior goal difference and St. Mirren still to play Killie, I make it we’re 99.99% there. 
 

Killie win next week, St. Mirren 7 points behind and can’t catch us. St. Mirren win, Killie 6 points behind with 6 to play for. Draw, St. Mirren 6 points behind.

[OrlandoDon]

34 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Gogic is better than what we've got, but it would have to be to replace Milne, because he's very right sided. He's also a bit of a liability at times, as he has the tendency to go for things he's never getting and relies on his blood and thunder approach rather than good positioning. He's like the Shinnie of defence! As much as I like watching him when he's not playing for us, because he's entertaining, I'd probably prefer we had someone more orthodox. 

As for Milne, he reminds me of Considine when he broke through. Had the physical attributes, but just not able to use them yet. It's his first season, he's a Dandy, and I want him to succeed and be given every opportunity to succeed. He was very good on the ball when he first came through, his unsettled performances got him panicking on the ball a bit, with the fullback also not showing for it, and he's trying wild passes that he's capable of, but not with any consistency. He's a much better footballer than he's showing. Jack Hendry went through a similar period at his age, it's not unusual for a defender, and I think if we stick with him he'll return the confidence shown with continuous improvement. I hope we take the time with one of our own. 

Yep, I think Knoester would do well with someone that really attacked the ball alongside him. I think that would probably see the end of Milne at Pittodrie, at an important stage of his development, that's all. I don't think Knoester is the right type of player to improve Milne, and it'd be nice to have a strategy for bringing players through, including dragging them through difficult patches. If we can't develop a player with the attributes that Milne has, recognising his weaknesses, then we should probably just pack up the youth setup. 

Very poor comparison but miller and McLeish complimented each other, we didn’t really want two millers or two mcleish’s, we had great balance. Where I think knoester beats Milne is I think Milne is soft, and for his height is really poor in the air, he’s just not a center half, he’s not fearless and aggressive. Knoester is a central defender.I I think milne’s ultimately a midfielder. Adding a brute next to knoester makes more sense than adding a brute next to Milne.

RE Gogic, he could do a job despite his age. If he’s athletic and mobile he could play until he’s 36/37 and fill in at holding mid and central defense. Kinda what I expected from sivert, then we realized he couldn’t bend his legs or move.

[RicoS321]

42 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

Very poor comparison but miller and McLeish complimented each other, we didn’t really want two millers or two mcleish’s, we had great balance. Where I think knoester beats Milne is I think Milne is soft, and for his height is really poor in the air, he’s just not a center half, he’s not fearless and aggressive. Knoester is a central defender.I I think milne’s ultimately a midfielder. Adding a brute next to knoester makes more sense than adding a brute next to Milne.

Milne is soft because he's 23 and playing in his first season was the argument I'm making. He's got the physique, he's just not using it. Knoester is actually also quite soft and not great in the air due to his physique, but he's 27 and around his peak. Milne needs somebody better at leading, in the way Miller did, basically throwing him into challenges and constantly barking at him. Knoester doesn't do that either unfortunately. Knoester would be complimented by someone like Gogic, as you mention, Milne needs a captain (or leader/organiser) alongside him to force him to be aggressive, and use the strength he's got. Milne played midfield when on loan, but he's not an SPFL midfielder, and will never be. 

I think we have to find a strategy for getting young players through, rather than just say that if they're not good enough straight away then we give up. That involves getting strong leaders in their direct partnership roles. I think Nisbet is good at that in attack, but we're missing that in midfield and defence. I couldn't imagine throwing a youngster into our current midfield and expecting success!

 

[tlg1903]

3 hours ago, swaddon said:

It worked for Fergie.

Nearly 50 years ago, mind. But still.

Not really seeing anyone of Peter Weir quality in their team right now.....

[OrlandoDon]

57 minutes ago, tlg1903 said:

Not really seeing anyone of Peter Weir quality in their team right now.....

Funny, thought of weir today too. Strachan wasn’t a winger, but were we spoiled. McGinn and Hayes seem a long time ago too. We need many new players, but two proper wingers would do so much for us. Even Morris and hedges are a clear upgrade on the current options.

Edited 21 hours ago by OrlandoDon

[Kowalski]

51 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

Funny, thought of weir today too. Strachan wasn’t a winger, but were we spoiled. McGinn and Hayes seem a long time ago too. We need many new players, but two proper wingers would do so much for us. Even Morris and hedges are a clear upgrade on the current options.

I agree if we are switching to a system that uses wingers. But if it’s 5-3-2 then Frame and Lobban looks good enough - that said I’m not sure why the later is not getting a game. 

[tlg1903]

2 hours ago, Kowalski said:

I agree if we are switching to a system that uses wingers. But if it’s 5-3-2 then Frame and Lobban looks good enough - that said I’m not sure why the later is not getting a game. 

Robinson allegedly prefers a 433, he did change to that when it went 2-2 on Friday as well.  

[Ajja]

1 minute ago, tlg1903 said:

Robinson allegedly prefers a 433, he did change to that when it went 2-2 on Friday as well.  

That’s why I think he’ll hold onto Keskinen. He should be a good fit in that system and offers some more expansive ability.
 

Do we think Marshall will be a mainstay in the midfield or are we doing our usual in convincing a young lad to sign on to protect our future earnings with no intention of developing him? 

[The.Moog]

16 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

Very poor comparison but miller and McLeish complimented each other, we didn’t really want two millers or two mcleish’s, we had great balance. Where I think knoester beats Milne is I think Milne is soft, and for his height is really poor in the air, he’s just not a center half, he’s not fearless and aggressive. Knoester is a central defender.I I think milne’s ultimately a midfielder. Adding a brute next to knoester makes more sense than adding a brute next to Milne.

RE Gogic, he could do a job despite his age. If he’s athletic and mobile he could play until he’s 36/37 and fill in at holding mid and central defense. Kinda what I expected from sivert, then we realized he couldn’t bend his legs or move.

Yep, this is where I am with Milne.

I actually feel for him because its the club that’s tried to shoehorn him into a position he can’t play purely based on his size - but I guess that’s because he isn’t good enough for midfield either.

He’s soft because he’s soft. Nothing to do with age, its just his character. Not the boys fault, its who he is, but its zero use as a CH in this league. You can’t coach personality traits and character, so he’ll always be too soft for CH.

Then there is his complete lack of heading ability. Ok, maybe that can be coached a bit, but the basics need to be there (including the aggression) and he’s not got it.

I’ve seen enough, there’s just not enough there to make it worth persisting with in our first team. If they want to keep him, he needs to do it out on loan. Get him a loan next to that big experienced hairy arsed CH who he can learn off and see if that works. We can’t do it in our first team next season though, way too much of a liability…

Edited 8 hours ago by The.Moog

[RicoS321]

3 hours ago, The.Moog said:

Yep, this is where I am with Milne.

I actually feel for him because its the club that’s tried to shoehorn him into a position he can’t play purely based on his size - but I guess that’s because he isn’t good enough for midfield either.

He’s soft because he’s soft. Nothing to do with age, its just his character. Not the boys fault, its who he is, but its zero use as a CH in this league. You can’t coach personality traits and character, so he’ll always be too soft for CH.

Then there is his complete lack of heading ability. Ok, maybe that can be coached a bit, but the basics need to be there (including the aggression) and he’s not got it.

I’ve seen enough, there’s just not enough there to make it worth persisting with in our first team. If they want to keep him, he needs to do it out on loan. Get him a loan next to that big experienced hairy arsed CH who he can learn off and see if that works. We can’t do it in our first team next season though, way too much of a liability…

Considine was soft as shite for his first two or three seasons. He worked out how to use his strength, got himself very fit, and from about 2008 onwards was always very aggressive in defence. Aggression is just a form of confidence, and once you start putting yourself about a bit, it comes. Nastiness can't usually be nurtured, but by aggression, we're just talking about learning how to use your strength and knowing that you're getting to a ball first. I'd actually say it's very rare for a young centre half to come in and have those attributes in their first season. McKenna did (although he apparently didn't during his loan spell), Porteous at Hibs and Graham at Dundee, but it's not the norm. There's a difference between playing without fear, and actually being strong and aggressive of course, and it's not usual for a young forward player to be in the former category. I'm sure there are tonnes of examples of defenders who've learned to use their physical attributes over time. It's not even unusual to see defenders do it later in their career, or after a year or so getting used to a league. Joe Shaugnessy was fairly weak as a Dons youth, but he was the opposite by the time he reached Dundee.