Dons V Well (League Cup Quarter Final)

[Kowalski]

Devlin should be starting at right back every week. 

[OxfordDon]

[wee toon red]

We’ve got a team of modern, risk averse robots. Very few risks are taken because you must keep the ball at all costs. Maybe works elsewhere but it’s clearly not doing us any good and I’m not sure Jimmy is ever going to figure it out if he hasn’t by now.

[RicoS321]

Aye, that was gash again today. Turgid stuff to watch. Again, we weren't terrible in the first half, but not great either. Lots of endeavour, especially from Keskinen who put in a power of work, but the overlapping fullbacks who not only don't overlap, but aren't really given the opportunity to do so either. They got the boot up the arse that we didn't at half time and that was all that was required. They dominated the opening period and waited for our mistake, with Devlin obliging on his wrong foot, and Knoester (who was poor again) following up at snail's pace. Clarkson the only one trying to move it quickly, with Palaversa like being a man down. Polvara's touch when he has his back to goal is shocking too. Special mention for Karlsson being utter dogshite too, just a very easy player to play against. Nisbet sprang into life when Lazetic came on, unsurprisingly to anyone who watched him play last season, but it was too late to be of use. 

Overall, we're just not very good. We have a lot of very average players. They all look like they're either on the verge of being good, or past the point of being good. There isn't a single player - bar Clarkson, and probably Mitov - who is playing at their best and improving. The subs were again testament to the atrocious squad building at a club who has only now managed to get a director of football in. If even the layperson, such as the people on this board, can see that it's an extremely stupid decision to go into a season with only one system and only players that fit that system, then it's criminal that there isn't a person raising that point within the club. Jensen was getting the ball deep, crying out for someone to slide it down the line to, and nobody was allowed to make that run. Karlsson, especially, narrowed in every single time on that side. I felt sorry for him. Thelin clearly watching a different game.

[RicoS321]

24 minutes ago, wee toon red said:

We’ve got a team of modern, risk averse robots. Very few risks are taken because you must keep the ball at all costs. Maybe works elsewhere but it’s clearly not doing us any good and I’m not sure Jimmy is ever going to figure it out if he hasn’t by now.

Clarkson takes risks, and I think that's what Aouchiche is supposed to do too, if it wasn't for the fact that he isn't very good. But otherwise, you're right. Take Morris out and your just left with the tippy tappy pish. 

[OrlandoDon]

34 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Aye, that was gash again today. Turgid stuff to watch. Again, we weren't terrible in the first half, but not great either. Lots of endeavour, especially from Keskinen who put in a power of work, but the overlapping fullbacks who not only don't overlap, but aren't really given the opportunity to do so either. They got the boot up the arse that we didn't at half time and that was all that was required. They dominated the opening period and waited for our mistake, with Devlin obliging on his wrong foot, and Knoester (who was poor again) following up at snail's pace. Clarkson the only one trying to move it quickly, with Palaversa like being a man down. Polvara's touch when he has his back to goal is shocking too. Special mention for Karlsson being utter dogshite too, just a very easy player to play against. Nisbet sprang into life when Lazetic came on, unsurprisingly to anyone who watched him play last season, but it was too late to be of use. 

Overall, we're just not very good. We have a lot of very average players. They all look like they're either on the verge of being good, or past the point of being good. There isn't a single player - bar Clarkson, and probably Mitov - who is playing at their best and improving. The subs were again testament to the atrocious squad building at a club who has only now managed to get a director of football in. If even the layperson, such as the people on this board, can see that it's an extremely stupid decision to go into a season with only one system and only players that fit that system, then it's criminal that there isn't a person raising that point within the club. Jensen was getting the ball deep, crying out for someone to slide it down the line to, and nobody was allowed to make that run. Karlsson, especially, narrowed in every single time on that side. I felt sorry for him. Thelin clearly watching a different game.

Problem is, I think we do have good players. I think we do have players that will take risks. I am really concerned about tactics. When you don’t have width the field gets smaller. Easier to defend. Give us width stretching the opponent and players like aouchiche have much more space and can be effective penetrating centrally. We are also slow and the lack of width makes us slower. So much cutting inside and going sideways or backwards. We give so much time for opponents to get back and be organized. We are our own worst enemy. 
I hate saying it, but look at the success Morris had simply kicking and running for the most part. He got down the line and created goals. He wasn’t nearly consistent enough but he showed what width and getting to the line can do.

Not only are our wide guys not doing it, we’re not seeing the full backs do it. We had success with devlin bombing down the line, Mackenzie on the other side. That has gone.

Edited September 20 by OrlandoDon

[Kowalski]

6 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Clarkson takes risks, and I think that's what Aouchiche is supposed to do too, if it wasn't for the fact that he isn't very good. But otherwise, you're right. Take Morris out and your just left with the tippy tappy pish. 

I’ve said it before Clarkson has to start. He’s the best passer in the team. It’s Clarkson + 1 other in midfield depending on the opposition. 

[RicoS321]

16 minutes ago, Kowalski said:

I’ve said it before Clarkson has to start. He’s the best passer in the team. It’s Clarkson + 1 other in midfield depending on the opposition. 

It depends who you are playing against and what you're doing up front. I can see the merit in just bringing him on in games, especially away from home. If we'd had a front two today, with Nisbet dropping deep in space, I'm convinced that we'd be fine with Shinnie and Nilsen, even. When Nisbet gets it with space, he immediately plays in the wide player. That means that they have space to play the early cross, or they already have the yard on their man. We got several crosses in from Jensen in the second half after the subs precisely because of that. Every time it went back to Palaversa it took eight days to reach Jensen, who isn't going past anyone, and he looks bad because of it. 

 

26 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

Problem is, I think we do have good players.

I'm not convinced that we do. I think they are mediocre and easy to play against for the most part. It's a team of identikit passive guys, who are nice on the ball. A team of Rob Milsons. 

We are also significantly worse than last season. 

Inevitably, too. The signs have been there for a year, after we allowed the manager to have more and more control. The squad building in the summer was an abject failure, and reeks of not having a person at director level capable of asking the correct questions. The last day gambling hasn't paid off.

 

[OrlandoDon]

8 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

 The squad building in the summer was an abject failure, and reeks of not having a person at director level capable of asking the correct questions. The last day gambling hasn't paid off.

 

I don’t know what to think in that sense. I’m an ‘A’ licensed coach with 30 yrs coaching experience, not obviously at the pro level but decent standard. I have to think people at the professional level know and see more than us/me. Even on my coaching courses there were next level guys streets ahead of me in their thoughts and ability and we were doing the same courses. I have to think that Thelin Gunn and burrows know more than us and question each other regularly in a subjective manner.

as for summer failure and last day gambling, I don’t think we can definitively say we failed yet. I question the tactics for now but think, and we disagree here, we have picked up some good players.

[RicoS321]

8 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

I don’t know what to think in that sense. I’m an ‘A’ licensed coach with 30 yrs coaching experience, not obviously at the pro level but decent standard. I have to think people at the professional level know and see more than us/me. Even on my coaching courses there were next level guys streets ahead of me in their thoughts and ability and we were doing the same courses. I have to think that Thelin Gunn and burrows know more than us and question each other regularly in a subjective manner.

as for summer failure and last day gambling, I don’t think we can definitively say we failed yet. I question the tactics for now but think, and we disagree here, we have picked up some good players.

Burrows is a Motherwell fan and chief executive (not a criticism), and Gunn is just an administrator turned football director. None have actual football experience. I don't necessarily think that you need it, in order to ask the right questions. Neither would appear to have the authority to properly question JT and ultimately override him. I think that became fairly clear when he began to bring in his own guys, both on and off the pitch. 

It remains to be seen whether the players we have brought in are good or not (I still think Clarkson is our best player, and the rest just average), but that's not the entire problem. The problem is that he's been allowed to fill an entire squad with players who are exactly the same as one another. All our wingers are basically Keskinen, or Matty Kennedy with foreign names. All our midfielders offer the same thing. Our strikers are all the same. All so that we can learn one system, and switch players in and out of it. It's a ridiculously stupid gamble for a club on our budget. We are never going to have the quality to not have to just grind out results, and punt it long to the big lad and pick up the scraps. It's either been a deliberate plan to accommodate one system, or he's just ended up buying players with similar attributes in error. Either way, there should have been someone at the club questioning the dogma and making a clear and evidenced point as to why it wasn't pragmatic. That person isn't there, yet, and it'll cost Thelin his job. We saw this exact same scenario under Glass, and we haven't learned since.

[Panda]

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

Nisbet sprang into life when Lazetic came on, unsurprisingly to anyone who watched him play last season, but it was too late to be of use. 

Aye this was the big thing for me.

I get Thelin wants Nisbet to play deeper. But you then need either your two wide men getting into the box and getting shots off - which they didn't - or someone going beyond Nisbet to get on the end of things - which isn't Aouchche's game.

Our two best chances fell to defenders. At least with Yengi earlier in the season he was getting chances, just not taking them. Now our so-called threats aren't even getting chances.

19 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

burrows know more than us and

About what? I doubt he knows more about football or coaching than the general fan.

 

[dons8321]

5 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

 

Topi or milanovic, does it really matter? No goals or assists 

We've only scored 2 goals this season and one of those scorers is no longer at the club so your comment applies to the whole squad!

[OrlandoDon]

12 minutes ago, Panda said:

About what? I doubt he knows more about football or coaching than the general fan.

 

I’d expect him to know more about football than the general fan. He’s professionally hired to perform a role successfully at the club, he should know more than the average punter. That doesn’t mean he’s an effective coach, but he should know more to do his job effectively, and since his job is football he should have a better than average knowledge of football and our team. plus he sees us more than fans and is in situations/discussions about our team and club that fans are not. He knows more about the inner workings of our team and club.

i compare fans to hair dressers and mechanics, we all go to games, just like we all own a car and have hair. Doesn’t mean we can all cut hair or fix cars, just like it doesn’t mean our opinions of what we see in football are correct. But when you are hired in the industry I expect there to be a professional knowledge. The extent of that depends on the job specifics.

[OrlandoDon]

6 minutes ago, dons8321 said:

We've only scored 2 goals this season and one of those scorers is no longer at the club so your comment applies to the whole squad!

I was talking team selection and the right mid/wing position, season to date I dont see a reason to favor topi over milanovic or vice versa. For that position, their job is to get goals and assists.

[Panda]

9 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

I’d expect him to know more about football than the general fan. He’s professionally hired to perform a role successfully at the club, he should know more than the average punter.

No. That's like saying Cormack knows more than me about football and I'm not having that.

He's a CEO. I don't know what he does every day but when it comes to football decisions I hope he and Cormack are staying well out of it.

[RicoS321]

3 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

I’d expect him to know more about football than the general fan. He’s professionally hired to perform a role successfully at the club, he should know more than the average punter. That doesn’t mean he’s an effective coach, but he should know more to do his job effectively, and since his job is football he should have a better than average knowledge of football and our team. plus he sees us more than fans and is in situations/discussions about our team and club that fans are not. He knows more about the inner workings of our team and club.

i compare fans to hair dressers and mechanics, we all go to games, just like we all own a car and have hair. Doesn’t mean we can all cut hair or fix cars, just like it doesn’t mean our opinions of what we see in football are correct. But when you are hired in the industry I expect there to be a professional knowledge. The extent of that depends on the job specifics.

I don't think that necessarily follows. His role isn't on the footballing side, and he shouldn't have the authority to question Thelin's decision making, I think he'd be overstepping if he did. Burrows is like Duncan Fraser before him. He has inside knowledge, of course, but that doesn't give him authority. He might question spending a portion of our budget on a single player, for example, but I wouldn't expect him to be raising the sort of questions we're asking. That would be Gunn's role. However, even if they were asking, they've clearly failed in getting their point across. This is clearly Thelin's ideology throughout, you can tell by the way he speaks and what he says. In that regard, it's clear why Gunn is leaving. He isn't doing it properly.

[OrlandoDon]

10 minutes ago, Panda said:

No. That's like saying Cormack knows more than me about football and I'm not having that.

He's a CEO. I don't know what he does every day but when it comes to football decisions I hope he and Cormack are staying well out of it.

It depends on the responsibilities of his role, but I believe to be hired in football you should know something about football and be around it enough, involved in meetings/discussions, were you are exposed to more than us. Obviously if you are our accountant that’s different, but if you are making decisions that affect the first team, you should have some understanding, more than the average fan. 

[dons8321]

27 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

I was talking team selection and the right mid/wing position, season to date I dont see a reason to favor topi over milanovic or vice versa. For that position, their job is to get goals and assists.

I agree with you, the point I was trying to make that no-one else is getting goals or assits.  Milanovic should be ahead of Topi as that the latter has had a whole season with us and apart from some excellent moments (his first goal on his debut and his strike against Dundee for instance) he hasn't really developed as we hoped he would.  But he's a first choice for JT.  He isn't really that quick - and when we have him and Jensen on the same wing then we've got very little pace out wide right.

[OrlandoDon]

10 minutes ago, dons8321 said:

I agree with you, the point I was trying to make that no-one else is getting goals or assits.  Milanovic should be ahead of Topi as that the latter has had a whole season with us and apart from some excellent moments (his first goal on his debut and his strike against Dundee for instance) he hasn't really developed as we hoped he would.  But he's a first choice for JT.  He isn't really that quick - and when we have him and Jensen on the same wing then we've got very little pace out wide right.

Agree, plus have we really seen what milanovic can do?

[dons8321]

Why are our corners so shit.  Karlsson, took the first 3 and they were all dreadful...he motioned for Clarkson to take one and, fuck me, again, it was dreadful.  Do we practice taking corners at Cormack Park and target the man on the front post in the different coloured shirt. 

[OrlandoDon]

11 minutes ago, dons8321 said:

Why are our corners so shit.  Karlsson, took the first 3 and they were all dreadful...he motioned for Clarkson to take one and, fuck me, again, it was dreadful.  Do we practice taking corners at Cormack Park and target the man on the front post in the different coloured shirt. 

From what I remember, the only corner that beat the first man was devlin’s header that hit the bar.

given karlsson has been here maybe 2 weeks, how much practice have we done on corners with him taking them? If we have set routines that takes practice, or is it just hit and hope?

[dons8321]

12 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

From what I remember, the only corner that beat the first man was devlin’s header that hit the bar.

given karlsson has been here maybe 2 weeks, how much practice have we done on corners with him taking them? If we have set routines that takes practice, or is it just hit and hope?

Well I'd hope in 2 weeks we'd have loads of practice with him taking them and should be able to deliver a reasonable cross into the penalty area from a dead-ball situation  He's a professional fitba player, for Christ's sake...he shouldn't need another week or 2 to be able to deliver a ball into the dangerous area of the penalty box.   

[RicoS321]

37 minutes ago, dons8321 said:

Well I'd hope in 2 weeks we'd have loads of practice with him taking them and should be able to deliver a reasonable cross into the penalty area from a dead-ball situation  He's a professional fitba player, for Christ's sake...he shouldn't need another week or 2 to be able to deliver a ball into the dangerous area of the penalty box.   

I watched the world cup final between Argentina and France a while back, and that Messi lad failed to beat the first man more than once, as did thon Modric laddy in an earlier round. It is very common. Most corners will not reach the intended target. Clarkson's was into a decent area, just a touch too close to the keeper. Karlsson's efforts suggest there was a plan to hit the defender running towards the near post, which worked once in four, which is fine. It's marginally better odds than scoring with a free kick. It's very easy to loop a ball into the box, just as it's easy to get a free kick on target, but straight at the keeper. It's not very easy to play a corner at a pace that requires the attacker just to meet it in order to guide it in (or onto the bar in Devlin's case), just as it isn't easy to get a free kick right in the top corner. I'm not a big watcher of foreign fitba, but I hear the "a professional should be able to get a corner past the first man" type shout in every league in the world (including the big English one), and at international level. I've seen it said about Gilmour for Scotland, and even John McGinn. They've done alright for themselves otherwise. An accurate corner that is at a pace that can be scored from isn't that easy. However, there is probably merit in suggesting that we just loop it in gently to the area and hope we get on the end of a knock down or ricochet. Especially when everything is handball these days. You'd probably get a far better return playing a safe lob. Karlsson set up a very good chance with one though, which I'd say is probably a decent return. 

Edited September 20 by RicoS321

[dons8321]

18 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

I watched the world cup final between Argentina and France a while back, and that Messi lad failed to beat the first man more than once, as did thon Modric laddy in an earlier round. It is very common. Most corners will not reach the intended target. Clarkson's was into a decent area, just a touch too close to the keeper. Karlsson's efforts suggest there was a plan to hit the defender running towards the near post, which worked once in four, which is fine. It's marginally better odds than scoring with a free kick. It's very easy to loop a ball into the box, just as it's easy to get a free kick on target, but straight at the keeper. It's not very easy to play a corner at a pace that requires the attacker just to meet it in order to guide it in (or onto the bar in Devlin's case), just as it isn't easy to get a free kick right in the top corner. I'm not a big watcher of foreign fitba, but I hear the "a professional should be able to get a corner past the first man" type shout in every league in the world (including the big English one), and at international level. I've seen it said about Gilmour for Scotland, and even John McGinn. They've done alright for themselves otherwise. An accurate corner that is at a pace that can be scored from isn't that easy. However, there is probably merit in suggesting that we just loop it in gently to the area and hope we get on the end of a knock down or ricochet. Especially when everything is handball these days. You'd probably get a far better return playing a safe lob. Karlsson set up a very good chance with one though, which I'd say is probably a decent return. 

Motherwell didn't seem to have any trouble beating the first man with their numerous corners which caused us a few problems so I guess their takers are better than the 2 laddies you mentioned..  On a more serious note why do we persist in having all our players in the penalty box when defending corners?   Leaving 1 player on the half-way line (as they did yesterday) means at least 2 of their players staying back.

[OrlandoDon]

32 minutes ago, dons8321 said:

Motherwell didn't seem to have any trouble beating the first man with their numerous corners which caused us a few problems so I guess their takers are better than the 2 laddies you mentioned..  On a more serious note why do we persist in having all our players in the penalty box when defending corners?   Leaving 1 player on the half-way line (as they did yesterday) means at least 2 of their players staying back.

That’s not just us, it’s a very common thing these days to have the whole team back. I don’t get it at all, as you say, leave one up they’ll leave two back, plus it helps if we counter attack.