Crazy American Politics

[Mason89]

4 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

We live in different cultures, miles apart, a little different to Airdrie. Go live in California and I’m keen to get your take. Just because we both speak English and you watch our movies, we’re not the same culture. You see me as extreme, back at you. But I don’t see it as wrong, just different. Diff cultures countries and beliefs. You sound similar to those in Cali in a way with your judgements, I don’t live that way. 
regarding the vax, do your reading, there tons of info out there now about the effects by many way more educated and qualified than me. My wife and I both gave up 6 figure jobs, sold our house and 99% possessions, and drove 2200 miles to Florida with no jobs. That sounds crazy! But we did a ton of research, spoke to doctors, and did what we felt was best for our family. Make an educated decision and go for it, but you don’t get to take it back later. I see it like Russian roulette, if you don’t have to play, why play.

You weren’t playing Russian roulette, you shouldn’t have done your own research and you made what appears to be a fairly big upheaval for absolutely fuck all. 
 

I can see why you have to convince yourself you were right though. 
 

It sounds like to me you’ve never been to Airdrie 

[OrlandoDon]

2 minutes ago, Mason89 said:

You weren’t playing Russian roulette, you shouldn’t have done your own research and you made what appears to be a fairly big upheaval for absolutely fuck all. 
 

I can see why you have to convince yourself you were right though. 
 

It sounds like to me you’ve never been to Airdrie 

Alternatively, we were sure after significant research that it was worth the upheaval for our kids sake and health.

many do things because they are told. You can tell I’m not that guy. I’ll ask questions, especially in this case when it’s the government telling you it good for you, while offering free pizza and movie tickets.

[RicoS321]

11 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

while offering free pizza and movie tickets

You turned down what? Not vaccinating your kids is one thing, but only an idiot would turn the chance to a free pizza and film. 

[InversneckieDob]

The world really is fucked.

[Mason89]

6 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

Alternatively, we were sure after significant research that it was worth the upheaval for our kids sake and health.

many do things because they are told. You can tell I’m not that guy. I’ll ask questions, especially in this case when it’s the government telling you it good for you, while offering free pizza and movie tickets.

You were sure but you reached the wrong conclusions. Your previous post on how dangerous the vaccine is shows how wrong you were in gigantic neon lights. I’m glad it’s worked out well for you though. 
 

Youve moved to a state with a measles outbreak btw 

[OrlandoDon]

7 minutes ago, Mason89 said:

You were sure but you reached the wrong conclusions. Your previous post on how dangerous the vaccine is shows how wrong you were in gigantic neon lights. I’m glad it’s worked out well for you though. 
 

Youve moved to a state with a measles outbreak btw 

To each their own!
And fwiw, I’m from lanark, been to airdrie a bunch. 

You’ve got me really curious now, you said I’m way out there and dangerous. I’m stunned by that, always seen myself as kinda middle of the road and boring. Give me one thing you think is extreme and dangerous, maybe you can help me learn? Or is it just that I don’t agree with you?

you can’t go with Covid vaccines though, there’s millions out there, tons of data to back up what I’m saying. I’m not on an island there.

[Don Julio]

Rico speaks a lot of sense on the Covid vaccine IMHO. There was no strong reason to vaccinate children. One of mine wanted it, the other didn’t. Main side effect was it messed up our holiday plans for a while!!

In terms of the impact on children more widely of the lockdown and home schooling, I fear we’re now living with the consequences.

Adults avoiding the vaccine is a whole other thing in my view.

And we do know, reasonably accurately, how many people died due to the excess death numbers in the relevant years. This is the joy of hard data. 

[RicoS321]

17 minutes ago, Don Julio said:

Rico speaks a lot of sense on the Covid vaccine IMHO. There was no strong reason to vaccinate children. One of mine wanted it, the other didn’t. Main side effect was it messed up our holiday plans for a while!!

In terms of the impact on children more widely of the lockdown and home schooling, I fear we’re now living with the consequences.

Adults avoiding the vaccine is a whole other thing in my view.

And we do know, reasonably accurately, how many people died due to the excess death numbers in the relevant years. This is the joy of hard data. 

I spoke a lot of sense while arguing over the incorrect point though! I think you're right about the lockdown.

In terms of adults, my view is that it shouldn't have been as coercive as it was presented in the UK (Scotland, specifically in my case), and it would have been extremely damaging if it had been as authoritarian as @OrlandoDon experienced. I wouldn't present a case against vaccine efficacy, I'm merely critical of its enforcement. That, in my opinion, caused serious ongoing trust issues. There was never any possibility of containing the virus in the UK or US and the vaccination approach should have reflected that. It should have been approached in a similar vein to the flu shot, with a much greater emphasis on hygiene and staying away from others when symptomatic, with significant new measures brought in to force employers' hand on compliance, both then and now. As a fit and healthy adult, the risk to me from COVID is low (I've had it a couple of times, and a mysterious COVID like virus before it had even arrived in the UK apparently), and the biggest risk factor I could have posed was going out or to work, with symptoms, not "not being vaccinated", which in itself is rather meaningless in a country of wildly circulating infections. I'm not seeking to blame governments with hindsight, I completely accept that decisions were made in good faith, and that there was perhaps a certain catharsis, or finality, to being able to point to the symbol of X% population vaccinated, we can open up for business! It certainly provided something of an endpoint. 

[Don Julio]

I think the missing bit of that argument is the capacity of the NHS to cope. I wasn’t in the rooms where the decisions were being taken, but I imagine NHS capacity will have been a major factor in the decisions reached. Allowing everyone to go their own way may well have resulted in more hospitalisations.

[RicoS321]

6 minutes ago, Don Julio said:

I think the missing bit of that argument is the capacity of the NHS to cope. I wasn’t in the rooms where the decisions were being taken, but I imagine NHS capacity will have been a major factor in the decisions reached. Allowing everyone to go their own way may well have resulted in more hospitalisations.

It's a good point. I don't believe that at that stage of the pandemic, the NHS capacity would have been an issue. Not any more of an issue than it has been in the subsequent years and post Brexit in general, where ambulances are regularly waiting hours. In other words, I don't think the primary factor would have been COVID. I say that because those at high risk, and above, say, sixty would likely have made exactly the same decision regardless. The numbers admitted not in those categories shouldn't have been enough to overwhelm anything, any more than it would now. We were still in lockdown when vaccines were on the go, which would have had a far greater impact on spread until those requiring most protection were done. Omicron followed shortly thereafter. I can't be the only one that was left wondering why on earth I was getting my third vaccine just to go to a Dons match, at a stage where it was very clear that it wasn't going to have anywhere near the required impact on spread.

[Mason89]

1 hour ago, OrlandoDon said:

you can’t go with Covid vaccines though, there’s millions out there, tons of data to back up what I’m saying. I’m not on an island there.

There’s no data to back up what you’re saying. 

By some particular quirk of fate, I had a few years head start when it came to anti vaccine stuff. There’s a whole back story to it and why vaccines in particular were used (& later trans folk) but I can assure you, the position you’re taking is nonsense. When COVID arrived, it was like Christmas Day to an awful lot of people who had been primed for it but not for the reason they think. 
This is the bit where you start filling in the blanks about Big Pharma, VAERS report, face nappies etc. I’m afraid it’s all complete bollocks. You’ll never take my word for it though, or the data proving it, or the word of anyone at all no matter how qualified. 
 

 

 

[RicoS321]

3 minutes ago, Mason89 said:

There’s no data to back up what you’re saying. 

By some particular quirk of fate, I had a few years head start when it came to anti vaccine stuff. There’s a whole back story to it and why vaccines in particular were used (& later trans folk) but I can assure you, the position you’re taking is nonsense. When COVID arrived, it was like Christmas Day to an awful lot of people who had been primed for it but not for the reason they think. 
This is the bit where you start filling in the blanks about Big Pharma, VAERS report, face nappies etc. I’m afraid it’s all complete bollocks. You’ll never take my word for it though, or the data proving it, or the word of anyone at all no matter how qualified. 
 

 

 

But, by the same token, there isn't a one to one between being anti COVID vaccine and anti vaxxer. It's perfectly possible to question the efficacy of giving everyone a vaccine they don't necessarily need, that doesn't stand true when referring to measles, polio etc vaccine. 

It's also possible to note the different responses around the world and discuss where they were authoritarian or otherwise. Despite what you believe about adults not taking the COVID vaccine, do you genuinely believe that it was an appropriate response to prevent a person's children from attending school off the back of it (a position I could completely understand with something like measles)? Is that what the science suggested? Or was it a reach from politicians? 

[Mason89]

I accept that the perception of vaccines are different when it comes to the COVID one but I don’t accept that the COVID vaccine was unsafe or there was any legitimate reason for anyone of any age not to take it. 
The response from various governments around the world is a separate argument altogether. The US & UK made many baffling decisions based on their competence. Nicola Sturgeon was despised (especially in the NE) for what I would say was a pretty decent attempt at facing a pandemic. Some countries did better than others. Sweden was absolutely shite before anyone starts. If it happened again, we would all make the exact same mistakes because we’ve learned nothing from the experience 

 

[TheDonbytheDee]

7 minutes ago, Mason89 said:

If it happened again, we would all make the exact same mistakes because we’ve learned nothing from the experience 

 

FFS min. Of course our Government learned from it.

If it happened again tomorrow, they wouldn't organise their office parties through WhatsApp.

[Elgindon]

37 minutes ago, Mason89 said:

I accept that the perception of vaccines are different when it comes to the COVID one but I don’t accept that the COVID vaccine was unsafe or there was any legitimate reason for anyone of any age not to take it. 
The response from various governments around the world is a separate argument altogether. The US & UK made many baffling decisions based on their competence. Nicola Sturgeon was despised (especially in the NE) for what I would say was a pretty decent attempt at facing a pandemic. Some countries did better than others. Sweden was absolutely shite before anyone starts. If it happened again, we would all make the exact same mistakes because we’ve learned nothing from the experience 

 

Vaccines take over 10 years of trials do they not,to test their efficacy and for adverse events.People were being asked to take a vaccine within months of it coming out,so it was very reasonable to 'not trust the science' and not get vaccinated

     

Edited 4 hours ago by Elgindon

[RicoS321]

42 minutes ago, Mason89 said:

I accept that the perception of vaccines are different when it comes to the COVID one but I don’t accept that the COVID vaccine was unsafe or there was any legitimate reason for anyone of any age not to take it. 
The response from various governments around the world is a separate argument altogether. The US & UK made many baffling decisions based on their competence. Nicola Sturgeon was despised (especially in the NE) for what I would say was a pretty decent attempt at facing a pandemic. Some countries did better than others. Sweden was absolutely shite before anyone starts. If it happened again, we would all make the exact same mistakes because we’ve learned nothing from the experience 

 

Then you didn't learn much from your experience of anti vaccine groups, did you? Any reason is a legitimate reason for not being vaccinated. I have a friend whose mum died after being injected prior to a routine operation. She was a fit and healthy under 50 year old who was absolutely terrified she would die being injected. The physical reasons might not be legitimate (and I would hugely disagree), but the social reasons most certainly are. The authoritarian approach of the Californian state officials would have been an absolute dream for the anti vax astroturfers, as you well know. 

I'm not asking you to have sympathy for @OrlandoDon's position (you should), I'm asking you whether you think preventing children from attending school was an intelligent response based on science?

[Mason89]

22 minutes ago, Elgindon said:

Vaccines take over 10 years of trials do they not,to test their efficacy and for adverse events.People were being asked to take a vaccine within months of it coming out,so it was very reasonable to 'not trust the science' and not get vaccinated

     

They were developed quickly, they weren’t rushed. 

[Elgindon]

Youre full of shit min

[Mason89]

10 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

Then you didn't learn much from your experience of anti vaccine groups, did you? Any reason is a legitimate reason for not being vaccinated. I have a friend whose mum died after being injected prior to a routine operation. She was a fit and healthy under 50 year old who was absolutely terrified she would die being injected. The physical reasons might not be legitimate (and I would hugely disagree), but the social reasons most certainly are. The authoritarian approach of the Californian state officials would have been an absolute dream for the anti vax astroturfers, as you well know. 

I'm not asking you to have sympathy for @OrlandoDon's position (you should), I'm asking you whether you think preventing children from attending school was an intelligent response based on science?

I’ve no idea what point you’re trying to make in the first paragraph. On your second, preventing children from attending school was an intelligent response based on the science 

[Mason89]

Just now, Elgindon said:

Youre full of shit min

Red tape was cut, clinical trials overlapped, the whole world was working on the same thing with unlimited budgets.

That doesn’t mean anything was missed, or that they rolled out something that was unsafe. 
 

You might think that’s shit but none of that changes the facts 

[OrlandoDon]

1 hour ago, Mason89 said:

There’s no data to back up what you’re saying. 

By some particular quirk of fate, I had a few years head start when it came to anti vaccine stuff. There’s a whole back story to it and why vaccines in particular were used (& later trans folk) but I can assure you, the position you’re taking is nonsense. When COVID arrived, it was like Christmas Day to an awful lot of people who had been primed for it but not for the reason they think. 
This is the bit where you start filling in the blanks about Big Pharma, VAERS report, face nappies etc. I’m afraid it’s all complete bollocks. You’ll never take my word for it though, or the data proving it, or the word of anyone at all no matter how qualified. 
 

 

 

I certainly opened a can of worms, did not want this to become the vaccine debate, I suffered from that in the past. Lost plenty of friends over it too.

Not asking for any sympathy, just that there’s information out there on both sides if you are willing to look and be open minded. Plenty of studies and doctors quoted for and against.  It’s very hard for some people to accept that something produced so quickly and so heavily pushed by government   Was taken by millions no questions asked, and now could not be entirely safe. I simply see it as your right to choose, to each their own, but you shouldn’t be punished for the decision you make. I will add, I spoke to my family many times about this, all live in Britain, they saw me as a crazy person too. My sister had cancer, I told her to do her research about compromised immune systems as I had read and heard negative reactions about that with the vaccine. She took it and died within a month. May be something, may be nothing, we’ll prob never know.

I know I am in a team of one, not looking for a fight but open to my previous comment. Am I really out there or I just don’t see the world as you do? I live in a very different bubble so difference has to be expected to an extent. I don’t see eye to eye with Rico on many things but he appears quite pragmatic, I could certainly be wrong, just don’t be so quick to shut down. Believe it or not, I am an educated person. I am also genuinely intrigued where you think I am dangerous!!

[Mason89]

Of course theres information on both sides but half of it is complete shite. You can say that about any subject on planet earth. What will really frazzle your mind is why you’re saying it about vaccines. It’s the same reason transphobia has gone through the roof, it’s the same reason why folk disproportionately hate immigrants and it’s the same reason why folk use the word ‘woke’ to describe everything they don’t understand. 
 

I guarantee you if you had unplugged your internet cable in 2013, none of this would matter to you 

Anyway, here’s a handy link. Read it, or don’t. The facts stay the same regardless 

 

http://www.docbastard.net/2019/03/busting-vaccine-myths.html?m=1

[OrlandoDon]

32 minutes ago, Mason89 said:

Of course theres information on both sides but half of it is complete shite. You can say that about any subject on planet earth. What will really frazzle your mind is why you’re saying it about vaccines. It’s the same reason transphobia has gone through the roof, it’s the same reason why folk disproportionately hate immigrants and it’s the same reason why folk use the word ‘woke’ to describe everything they don’t understand. 
 

I guarantee you if you had unplugged your internet cable in 2013, none of this would matter to you 

Anyway, here’s a handy link. Read it, or don’t. The facts stay the same regardless 

 

http://www.docbastard.net/2019/03/busting-vaccine-myths.html?m=1

My wife and I walked away from great jobs and a great house, and relocated in our car 2200 miles. You really think we didn’t read a lot, do our due diligence, and think it through? Do you really think I didn’t do my research before moving my family in such a life changing manner? I don’t believe i’m the one that needs to listen to the other side. You live in your bubble, I live in mine, up to you how big you want that bubble to be.

i worked at the self proclaimed #1 DEI school in LA for 17 years, I’d hazard a guess I’m more educated in all of the topics you reference. Annual professional development was a big thing, I’m well versed and have a good grounding in what you reference. I’m not against it all as you may be implying, there’s just overreach, common sense, and human respect/decency on all sides.

I will agree with you, ignorance is bliss, and the internet is the devil!

[Mason89]

8 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

My wife and I walked away from great jobs and a great house, and relocated in our car 2200 miles. You really think we didn’t read a lot, do our due diligence, and think it through? Do you really think I didn’t do my research before moving my family in such a life changing manner? I don’t believe i’m the one that needs to listen to the other side. You live in your bubble, I live in mine, up to you how big you want that bubble to be.

i worked at the self proclaimed #1 DEI school in LA for 17 years, I’d hazard a guess I’m more educated in all of the topics you reference. Annual professional development was a big thing, I’m well versed and have a good grounding in what you reference. I’m not against it all as you may be implying, there’s just overreach, common sense, and human respect/decency on all sides.

I will agree with you, ignorance is bliss, and the internet is the devil!

I dont doubt for a second you researched it. The fact you did in the first place shows you weren’t going in with an open mind. You were looking for confirmation for your move and you found it. 

If you had researched it properly you would’ve found that the vaccine is class, makes you look cool, gives you a wee rattle and harmless. 
 

Just for clarity though, do you think the government shouldn’t have mandated the vaccine because it supersedes your body autonomy? It’s an overreach? 
 

[Jupiter]

Traditional vaccines like smallpox and polio are great and have saved milions of lives. The covid vaccines were mediocre at best, sure they saved some old people from dying of covid, but they didn't stop people from catching and speading covid. And the average age of people who died from/with covid was higher than average life expectancy.

The biggest problem I had with the covid vaccine is that it was only tested for a few months compared to about 10 years for other vaccines. Which is why I didn't get it. And I've never had covid as far as I know.