Re: Where do you stand? (JMG,JIG, etc)

[RicoS321]

6 minutes ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

Absolutely agree 100%......but what have you seen in the last year to suggest he deserves more time ain't inept?  

I'm trying to remember, there was something we did, but it escapes me.

It's not about whether the manager can cut it or not, it's about creating the conditions in which they can do the best possible job. Frustratingly, everyone seems to equate that with "amount of money given in a transfer window", which means we'll be in this situation again in 12-18 months. 

[Panda]

13 minutes ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

Absolutely agree 100%......but what have you seen in the last year to suggest he deserves more time ain't inept?  

The Scottish Cup win.

The eleven league games without defeat and sitting top of the table, having beaten Rangers, and coming back from 2-0 down to draw at Parkhead.

Surely though you didn't need me to remind you of that? Or are we just saying everything good he did was a fluke?

I'd say calling a guy who took a team that finished seventh in the previous season to the brink of third place is clearly not inept. He's made mistakes, by fuck is he getting punished for them, but this is where we'll see what he's really made of.

Edited Monday at 12:15 by Panda

[tlg1903]

10 minutes ago, Panda said:

The Scottish Cup win.

The eleven league games without defeat and sitting top of the table, having beaten Rangers, and coming back from 2-0 down to draw at Parkhead.

Surely though you didn't need me to remind you of that? Or are we just saying everything good he did was a fluke?

I'd say calling a guy who took a team that finished seventh in the previous season to the brink of third place is clearly not inept. He's made mistakes, by fuck is he getting punished for them, but this is where we'll see what he's really made of.

Agreed.  No-one is pretending it ain't shit at the moment but as far as I'm concerned this is the time to hold our nerve and stand tall behind Thelin.  There is more than enough evidence from his time at Aberdeen and how things went in his first two seasons at Elfsborg to warrant giving him the two seasons we were told we needed to give him by those in Sweden when we appointed him.  

[OrlandoDon]

I’m going against the grain but I have reasons to believe Thelin should be given time. Glass and Robson had little or no experience, Goodwin a little, jimmy has experience. I think glass could have been good with the right structure/support, I see Goodwin as another Mcinnes at the most, and Robson was limited. I’d take Robson back as part of the management team, but not as a head coach. He has value. There is no manager out there that I desperately want, and certainly nobody guarantees success. I suppose too for every new manager bounce there’s a potential Neil warnock.

It’s shit right now, we all agree, but I’d argue every team, maybe bar Celtic, will have a bad run. Ours is now and I’m optimistic we’ll come out of it. I also feel we are in a league that bar Celtic the rest will beat each other and a good run and we’ll but up to third or fourth pretty quickly. 
it’s modern football to sack a manager when you have a bad run, we’ve done that three times, we spent considerable time to get Thelin, let’s take a long term approach. You can see from experience, unlike the last managers, that he has a track record and is capable.

as a team leader/manager at work, it would be very hard to produce quickly if my team significantly changed every six months when all my projects were twelve month projects. It takes time to get up to speed with a new group. We needed a complete squad overhaul. Was sad we lost McKenzie and McGrath but we did try to keep both, everyone else wasnt a guaranteed starter, squad players, and we got good money for limited players.

thelin has shown he can attract players to the club. That’s big. While he’s not the only one involved in transfers, he’s a significant piece. I like this. He’s also shown he’ll adapt formation and is not afraid to make changes in both personnel and formation when needed. I dont think we see a lot in the January window but I do think we target the badly needed Rama type.

weve made mistakes, particularly with number of preseason games this season. Not sure why. I also don’t get why we signed Jensen, it has hurt in of our best performing players in devlin. It’s not perfect but another sacking and hope we get it right is a situation I don’t want to do through yet again. Let this run its course. It certainly requires trust/faith. 

[wokinginashearerwonderland]

2 hours ago, Panda said:

The Scottish Cup win.

The eleven league games without defeat and sitting top of the table, having beaten Rangers, and coming back from 2-0 down to draw at Parkhead.

Surely though you didn't need me to remind you of that? Or are we just saying everything good he did was a fluke?

I'd say calling a guy who took a team that finished seventh in the previous season to the brink of third place is clearly not inept. He's made mistakes, by fuck is he getting punished for them, but this is where we'll see what he's really made of.

The cup win was great but it papered over the cracks.  We parked the bus and barely got a kick in that game, Schmeichel threw in the equalising goal and we took some great penalties. 

The rest has been incredibly underwhelming.  We beat Rangers, great, we also lost to them 3-0 and 4-0.  Things have become so shit that you are celebrating a 2-2 draw with Celtic yet they also humped us 6(six)-0, 5-1 and then their reserves beat us 5-1 again at the end of the season.  We even lost 4-0 to Kilmarnock last season!

Moving on to this season, we are 2 months in, out of 2 cups, and not scored a league goal. I guess we will agree to disagree but I think you are mental to suggest this guy is making any kind of progress. On to Thursday night and it is likely to just be another case of how many we will lose by. 

  

 

[Panda]

57 minutes ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

The cup win was great but it papered over the cracks. 

Yeah, cracks which were there long before Thelin arrived, and that no-one expected Thelin to fix in one season.

That he won a cup regardless of that was pretty good management.

57 minutes ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

We parked the bus and barely got a kick in that game, Schmeichel threw in the equalising goal and we took some great penalties. 

Okay we're just ignoring Celtic's fortunate goal, that Celtic had shown what they were capable of at Hampden when they blew St Johnstone away in the semis, they hadn't lost a Scottish Cup game at Hampden under Rodgers, that mere months before that game that same Celtic team went very close to knocking Bayern Munich out of the Champions League, that after our goal we actually had four very good chances to win the game before penalties, and are just describing a very good defensive performance as "barely got a kick" because it doesn't suit the agenda?

We beat a treble chasing Celtic team at Hampden. That we didn't dominate the game doesn't make it any less of an achievement.

57 minutes ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

Things have become so shit that you are celebrating a 2-2 draw with Celtic yet they also humped us 6(six)-0, 5-1 and then their reserves beat us 5-1 again at the end of the season. 

Since you know so much about last season, can you post how many times Celtic:-

a) conceded at home in the Premiership 

b) dropped points at home in the Premiership?

It won't take you long, it's a short list.

I wasn't celebrating it. You asked for reasons why I didn't agree Thelin was "inept". Going and achieving things very few managers did last season, or even in previous seasons, is a strong argument against that.

We also were not the only team to lose heavily to them last season.

57 minutes ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

Moving on to this season, we are 2 months in, out of 2 cups, and not scored a league goal.

Is going out of the Europa League seemed a failure? We lost to the Romanian champions, who last week won away from home against the Dutch Cup winners.

Are we just finding every single negative we can think of here, while dismissing any positives?

57 minutes ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

 

I guess we will agree to disagree but I think you are mental to suggest this guy is making any kind of progress.

 

I didn't actually say that. Perhaps a better example of being mental would be seeing and replying to things that aren't actually there...

[OrlandoDon]

52 minutes ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

The cup win was great but it papered over the cracks.  We parked the bus and barely got a kick in that game, Schmeichel threw in the equalising goal and we took some great penalties. 

The rest has been incredibly underwhelming.  We beat Rangers, great, we also lost to them 3-0 and 4-0.  Things have become so shit that you are celebrating a 2-2 draw with Celtic yet they also humped us 6(six)-0, 5-1 and then their reserves beat us 5-1 again at the end of the season.  We even lost 4-0 to Kilmarnock last season!

Moving on to this season, we are 2 months in, out of 2 cups, and not scored a league goal. I guess we will agree to disagree but I think you are mental to suggest this guy is making any kind of progress. On to Thursday night and it is likely to just be another case of how many we will lose by. 

  

 

I guess define progress. On the field it’s piss at present and that’s what the majority of fans only consider. We did win the Scottish cup. Luck maybe or very good coaching against a much better team with a ton more money.

We undertook a huge squad overhaul. Got rid of dead wood and made some money on players that were not starting 11 players. We signed some exciting players (on paper), some for now and some young ones for the future. Not all will be successful signings but we had a shit squad that needed a long term (and ongoing) overhaul.

i get where you are coming from but the quick success approach has seen 4 managers in 4 years, I think a number of us appreciate a different approach. As I’ve said, it’s been a month since the window closed. I’ll pass more judgement by the end of the year but for now I’ll watch this shit and hope for a turnaround asap.

[Kowalski]

We were a better team for the first half of last season when we were still mostly playing players that Jimmy inherited. 
 

Most of his signings have been poor and we’re paying for it now as he’s too stubborn to drop them (until the last match) and (like Man U under Amorin) we’re entirely predictable to play against. I hope he can turn it around but fail to win on Sunday and he needs to go. 

[wokinginashearerwonderland]

49 minutes ago, Panda said:

Are we just finding every single negative we can think of here, while dismissing any positives?

No, I am just using the eye test to make judgement on where we are at.  You are harping back to a draw with Celtic almost a year ago as one of the reasons to be keeping this bloke in a job which is clutching at straws.  The last 40 games have been garbage.  We have a massive financial advantage over about 7 of the other teams in this league.  After 60 games in charge Thelin has us in a worse predicament than we were in before he arrived. I just think he has had a fair crack of the whip and it is not working and at some point the club has to have the balls to admit that.

[RicoS321]

38 minutes ago, wokinginashearerwonderland said:

No, I am just using the eye test to make judgement on where we are at.  You are harping back to a draw with Celtic almost a year ago as one of the reasons to be keeping this bloke in a job which is clutching at straws.  The last 40 games have been garbage.  We have a massive financial advantage over about 7 of the other teams in this league.  After 60 games in charge Thelin has us in a worse predicament than we were in before he arrived. I just think he has had a fair crack of the whip and it is not working and at some point the club has to have the balls to admit that.

He was responding to the point where you suggested Thelin was inept, and giving examples to show otherwise. We haven't progressed, nobody is suggesting that, just that it might not be down to ineptitude.

Similarly, the massive financial advantage isn't necessarily of benefit to the manager though. Nor a source of criticism either. How that budget is being spent is of far greater concern to me than the current performances for example. Of our new signings, none really look capable of coming into the current team and performing well (maybe Armstrong, and probably Karlsson?). Milanovic, Aouchiche, Nisbet, Gyamfi, Yengi, Lazetic, Bilalovic (the last two maybe have something) all look like distinctly average players that would need a lot of work. They're toiling a bit, through lack of confidence, but I haven't looked at any of the summer signings and thought we'd signed a player. They all look like squad filler players who might have a good run at some point, but we'd likely be trying to offload next summer, or shortly thereafter. 

For me, the biggest issues surround recruitment and squad building. We've got old players and young players, with little in-between. Project players and more project players. Zero balance. That is a hindrance on any budget. That is on the club, not the manager. Or at least it should be.

[tlg1903]

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

He was responding to the point where you suggested Thelin was inept, and giving examples to show otherwise. We haven't progressed, nobody is suggesting that, just that it might not be down to ineptitude.

Similarly, the massive financial advantage isn't necessarily of benefit to the manager though. Nor a source of criticism either. How that budget is being spent is of far greater concern to me than the current performances for example. Of our new signings, none really look capable of coming into the current team and performing well (maybe Armstrong, and probably Karlsson?). Milanovic, Aouchiche, Nisbet, Gyamfi, Yengi, Lazetic, Bilalovic (the last two maybe have something) all look like distinctly average players that would need a lot of work. They're toiling a bit, through lack of confidence, but I haven't looked at any of the summer signings and thought we'd signed a player. They all look like squad filler players who might have a good run at some point, but we'd likely be trying to offload next summer, or shortly thereafter. 

For me, the biggest issues surround recruitment and squad building. We've got old players and young players, with little in-between. Project players and more project players. Zero balance. That is a hindrance on any budget. That is on the club, not the manager. Or at least it should be.

Great post.  The biggest criticism I think that can be levelled at Thelin is I don't think he has a clue what his best cm pairing is 2bh.  At this stage in the 'project' at best that's highly questionable and at worst you could argue it's verging on negligent.  

 

[RicoS321]

32 minutes ago, tlg1903 said:

Great post.  The biggest criticism I think that can be levelled at Thelin is I don't think he has a clue what his best cm pairing is 2bh.  At this stage in the 'project' at best that's highly questionable and at worst you could argue it's verging on negligent.  

 

Although the fact that none are very good is probably not helping matters. I don't think it's just Thelin who doesn't have a clue what the least shite option is. The negligent part is having three well over the age of thirty, who aren't managing ninety minutes really, especially when Palaversa can't either.