DT Politics Thread

[CurlsLikeTattie]

24 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

And nor should you. But in the context of why some people might look at the concept with a degree of cynicism it's quite relevant 

 

But then, certain groups of people (and not always the same groups) can look at virtually any set up with cynicism, as no matter how idyllic any system appears there will ultimately be those who get shafted 

In our leafy suburb I'll happily pay an extra penny or two in the pound in taxes if it means those on lower incomes have access to quality services, health care and education.

Bring on Masontown (name needs some work). I'm in.

[manc_don]

Wellington, where I work (not live anymore) is probably more of a 10 than a 15 min city. Everything you need is within walking distance of the city centre a vice versa. The concept makes so much sense and there certainly isn’t anything that would stop you from leaving. Apart from the lack of international flights fuck you air NZ. 

Anyway, given the way the world is going, it provides the perfect opportunity for a less carbon heavy day to day existence. Just need to those petrol lobbyists to do one.

[RicoS321]

2 minutes ago, manc_don said:

Wellington, where I work (not live anymore) is probably more of a 10 than a 15 min city. Everything you need is within walking distance of the city centre a vice versa. The concept makes so much sense and there certainly isn’t anything that would stop you from leaving. Apart from the lack of international flights fuck you air NZ. 

Anyway, given the way the world is going, it provides the perfect opportunity for a less carbon heavy day to day existence. Just need to those petrol lobbyists to do one.

See this is partly the problem. What does "less carbon heavy" mean exactly? It's just a bollocks term that gives the veneer of sustainability, when there's not a single sustainable city on earth and never has been. That you outsource absolutely everything to poor people the world over, and launch your subsequent rubbish into the soil and sea (via the washing of recycling or landfill) is carefully omitted from the middle class utopia. 

"The concept makes so much sense", until you note that it is the most expensive place to live in NZ. That those who are actually responsible for the running of the leafy 10 minute utopia can't actually live there, and are either shipped in or out at the end of the day, or just not invited in in the first place. Because it actually makes zero sense at all, and is just a wonderful professional middle class disguise. If you actually included those that keep the city running in the equation then the whole thing would collapse for obvious reasons. Implicit in the design of any city is the exploitation of those who don't get to participate in its riches. 

I'm obviously a massive hypocrite, before anyone asks. I'm just responding to the initial point about 15 minute cities really. There is an attitude by most middle class people that scoffs at those stupid people who question the obvious idylls of 15 minute cities (those idiots and their conspiracy theories). Yet when you puncture the surface of their superficial ideas, it seems that most haven't actually, really, considered what a 15 minute city (or even just a city) is. Who gets to be in on it, and who doesn't. Why it can never expand to everyone, and why it's really not much different to what we have already. The undoubted benefits of no cars (although for some reason they always seem to want to keep roads?), and low pollution, which in our childish zero-sum economy means that someone somewhere is breathing your fumes and inhaling your plastics for you. In reality those that scoff at the conspiracy theorists have really just insulated themselves within their own bubble, where everything seems to be bloody obvious and common sense too. 

[CurlsLikeTattie]

1 hour ago, manc_don said:

Wellington, where I work (not live anymore) is probably more of a 10 than a 15 min city. Everything you need is within walking distance of the city centre a vice versa. The concept makes so much sense and there certainly isn’t anything that would stop you from leaving. Apart from the lack of international flights fuck you air NZ. 

Anyway, given the way the world is going, it provides the perfect opportunity for a less carbon heavy day to day existence. Just need to those petrol lobbyists to do one.

And what a lovely city in a lovely location it is. 

If Masontown doesn't get off the ground, I might look into Kiwi visa options!

[Mason89]

54 minutes ago, CurlsLikeTattie said:

And what a lovely city in a lovely location it is. 

If Masontown doesn't get off the ground, I might look into Kiwi visa options!

Masontown will have a universal basic income, billionaire Guillotine lottery, free Gitanes, no Huns, no pool tables in pubs and the population of Clydebank will be exploited to the fullest to maintain our citizens way of life 

[CurlsLikeTattie]

15 minutes ago, Mason89 said:

Masontown will have a universal basic income, billionaire Guillotine lottery, free Gitanes, no Huns, no pool tables in pubs and the population of Clydebank will be exploited to the fullest to maintain our citizens way of life 

Sounds fair. 

Where do I send my deposit?

[Jupiter]

Nobody in their right mind would want to live in Masontown

[CurlsLikeTattie]

23 minutes ago, Jupiter said:

Nobody in their right mind would want to live in Masontown

You seen the conditions on Jupiter? Giant ball of gas at -110C.

I know where I would rather be!

[manc_don]

8 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

See this is partly the problem. What does "less carbon heavy" mean exactly? It's just a bollocks term that gives the veneer of sustainability, when there's not a single sustainable city on earth and never has been. That you outsource absolutely everything to poor people the world over, and launch your subsequent rubbish into the soil and sea (via the washing of recycling or landfill) is carefully omitted from the middle class utopia. 

"The concept makes so much sense", until you note that it is the most expensive place to live in NZ. That those who are actually responsible for the running of the leafy 10 minute utopia can't actually live there, and are either shipped in or out at the end of the day, or just not invited in in the first place. Because it actually makes zero sense at all, and is just a wonderful professional middle class disguise. If you actually included those that keep the city running in the equation then the whole thing would collapse for obvious reasons. Implicit in the design of any city is the exploitation of those who don't get to participate in its riches. 

I'm obviously a massive hypocrite, before anyone asks. I'm just responding to the initial point about 15 minute cities really. There is an attitude by most middle class people that scoffs at those stupid people who question the obvious idylls of 15 minute cities (those idiots and their conspiracy theories). Yet when you puncture the surface of their superficial ideas, it seems that most haven't actually, really, considered what a 15 minute city (or even just a city) is. Who gets to be in on it, and who doesn't. Why it can never expand to everyone, and why it's really not much different to what we have already. The undoubted benefits of no cars (although for some reason they always seem to want to keep roads?), and low pollution, which in our childish zero-sum economy means that someone somewhere is breathing your fumes and inhaling your plastics for you. In reality those that scoff at the conspiracy theorists have really just insulated themselves within their own bubble, where everything seems to be bloody obvious and common sense too. 

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not the 15/20 min city yet, nor perfect, but has all the right ingredients to be so and was certainly doing things to address housing inequality (nimby’s are strong here) until the current govt came in and smashed the local economy and workforce which has only exacerbated the problem. But in principle, it is a very walkable city with the ability to grow / live / entertain / work within a relative stones throw of its borders and has a good public transport system. Recycling is the world’s biggest greenwashing scam, as it very rarely happens, so I won’t disagree with you on it and there won’t be a city in the world that achieves neutrality, so was why i purposely avoided using, as I don’t think it’s possible at scale. 
 

Your point about who gets to decide who is in it and why doesn’t it expand etc, that’s where connected centres come into play. The intention is it reduce sprawl (Auckland and Christchurch are fine examples of why you shouldn’t allow sprawl) which is what would happen if the fundamentals were allowed to be eroded. Public transport is key to this and I’m going back to Wellington as an example, which has 3 cities (Porirua, where I live, lower and upper hutts) within a 30min car or train journey from it. These cities don’t have the relevant densities but provide sufficient centres and economies in themselves. but again it’s inextricably linked to being able to provide sufficient density or housing opportunities that enable people to be where the jobs are. 

I might add to this later as I’m on my phone on the bus so haven’t had a chance to proof read  

[DonUnder]

1 hour ago, manc_don said:

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not the 15/20 min city yet, nor perfect, but has all the right ingredients to be so and was certainly doing things to address housing inequality (nimby’s are strong here) until the current govt came in and smashed the local economy and workforce which has only exacerbated the problem. But in principle, it is a very walkable city with the ability to grow / live / entertain / work within a relative stones throw of its borders and has a good public transport system. Recycling is the world’s biggest greenwashing scam, as it very rarely happens, so I won’t disagree with you on it and there won’t be a city in the world that achieves neutrality, so was why i purposely avoided using, as I don’t think it’s possible at scale. 
 

Your point about who gets to decide who is in it and why doesn’t it expand etc, that’s where connected centres come into play. The intention is it reduce sprawl (Auckland and Christchurch are fine examples of why you shouldn’t allow sprawl) which is what would happen if the fundamentals were allowed to be eroded. Public transport is key to this and I’m going back to Wellington as an example, which has 3 cities (Porirua, where I live, lower and upper hutts) within a 30min car or train journey from it. These cities don’t have the relevant densities but provide sufficient centres and economies in themselves. but again it’s inextricably linked to being able to provide sufficient density or housing opportunities that enable people to be where the jobs are. 

I might add to this later as I’m on my phone on the bus so haven’t had a chance to proof read  

I would love to hear how Upper Huts is pronounced! 

[Mason89]

8 hours ago, Jupiter said:

Nobody in their right mind would want to live in Masontown

Meanwhile, Jupiterville would have a birth rate of 0 

[TheDonbytheDee]

11 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

See this is partly the problem. What does "less carbon heavy" mean exactly? It's just a bollocks term that gives the veneer of sustainability, when there's not a single sustainable city on earth and never has been. That you outsource absolutely everything to poor people the world over, and launch your subsequent rubbish into the soil and sea (via the washing of recycling or landfill) is carefully omitted from the middle class utopia. 

In a nutshell, why utopia will never work.

The middle class should be up against the wall for shooting, along with the upper classes/super rich. I'll go out on a limb and say they are even worse than the upper classes, as at least upper classes hate the poor and don't want to mix or help them in anyway. I respect that honesty.

The middle classes are patronising as fuck. They may want to help the poor, but on their terms only.

They happily want to do charity stuff, like take in smart price beans, for food kitchens. A big thing at work the past few years has been giving and doing stuff for Abernecessities.

Nobody asks why we have to do this. Nobody gets really angry about it or would really change how they live.

Come Council Tax increases or Labour/ SNP increasing something and it's knives out against the minks and asylum seekers.

Don't even start them off on what the council estate has done to Countesswells property prices.

I work in a middle class profession, but I don't live in a middle class area or have middle class friends. I'm still a grade A Torry mink, through and through and proud of it.

You should hear a conversation in my work, when I tell someone where I live. It's priceless to watch their faces.

The idea of a 15 minute city appeals, but the reality would be very far from utopian. I mean, who delivers the takeaways?

Even in Masontown. Which let's be honest, does sound very hunnish, in a role up trouser leg and funny handshake kind of way.

 

 

 

[CurlsLikeTattie]

19 minutes ago, TheDonbytheDee said:

Even in Masontown. Which let's be honest, does sound very hunnish, in a role up trouser leg and funny handshake kind of way.

I did say the name needed some work

[CurlsLikeTattie]

19 minutes ago, TheDonbytheDee said:

The idea of a 15 minute city appeals, but the reality would be very far from utopian. I mean, who delivers the takeaways?

Robots

[TheDonbytheDee]

11 minutes ago, CurlsLikeTattie said:

Robots

Needs work. Saw it in practice in Helsinki last year, looked horrendously slow. 

I suppose it could be workable, by the time you get Tattietoon up and running.

[RicoS321]

41 minutes ago, CurlsLikeTattie said:

Robots

Yep, this is the massive fudge we get to reconcile the accounts. AI is also thrown in. 

How are we going to solve the coming inversion of the age pyramid? Toilet robots will rim Granda clean.  

 

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, TheDonbytheDee said:

In a nutshell, why utopia will never work.

The middle class should be up against the wall for shooting, along with the upper classes/super rich. I'll go out on a limb and say they are even worse than the upper classes, as at least upper classes hate the poor and don't want to mix or help them in anyway. I respect that honesty.

The middle classes are patronising as fuck. They may want to help the poor, but on their terms only.

They happily want to do charity stuff, like take in smart price beans, for food kitchens. A big thing at work the past few years has been giving and doing stuff for Abernecessities.

Nobody asks why we have to do this. Nobody gets really angry about it or would really change how they live.

Come Council Tax increases or Labour/ SNP increasing something and it's knives out against the minks and asylum seekers.

Don't even start them off on what the council estate has done to Countesswells property prices.

I work in a middle class profession, but I don't live in a middle class area or have middle class friends. I'm still a grade A Torry mink, through and through and proud of it.

You should hear a conversation in my work, when I tell someone where I live. It's priceless to watch their faces.

The idea of a 15 minute city appeals, but the reality would be very far from utopian. I mean, who delivers the takeaways?

Even in Masontown. Which let's be honest, does sound very hunnish, in a role up trouser leg and funny handshake kind of way.

 

 

 

Shut up and eat yer free beans.

[Mason89]

1 hour ago, TheDonbytheDee said:

 

The middle classes are patronising as fuck. They may want to help the poor, but on their terms only.

They happily want to do charity stuff, like take in smart price beans, for food kitchens. A big thing at work the past few years has been giving and doing stuff for Abernecessities.

Nobody asks why we have to do this. Nobody gets really angry about it or would really change how they live.

 

 

The only way it’ll change would be if folk stopped funding them. It gives the government a get out. Nobody should be sitting in a bath of beans to help keep cancer wards open 

[TheDonbytheDee]

Every year at our place, we get around £60 a head for the Mad Friday thing, which for around 300 workers, is quite a sizeable chunk of cash for folk that can easily pay their own way.

During lockdown there was no shindig and they donated the money earmarked for it to charity, fair enough.  I then made the suggestion that we should do this every year and pay for our own Mad Friday. I pushed for the funds to go to schools in poor areas.

To say the reaction to this wasn't well received was an understatement. The entitlement was off the scale. I was genuinely taken aback by the abuse I got for suggesting it. 

I don't partake in Mad Friday and I also lose 10% of my yearly bonus because I won't do the charity stuff linked to it.

We're meant to do it and post about it on the internal social media thing we use. Makes you want to boak. 

I still struggle to see why I am sort of being pushed out, as the oil industry up here dies. Was it something I said. 

 

I'm of the opinion that Utopia isn't happening in any of our lifetimes. No shit I hear you all say.  

You see the money being used to blow up the middle east and think how easily most of societys ills could be fixed if they really wanted it fixed and resources were used correctly. 

 

 

[Mason89]

Just on the subject of charity, I don’t want to make a donation when paying for my shopping, I can pack it myself and I dont want to chip in on my way out to the poppy foundation either. Fuck right off. 

[InversneckieDob]

11 hours ago, Jupiter said:

Nobody in their right mind would want to live in Masontown

I was waiting for the edgy take.

Thanks 

[InversneckieDob]

Utopia's never happening. 

Too many vested interests and it'll skew the blessed free market.

 

15 minute city is a sound premise, but see the above regarding vested interests and the blessed free market. 

 

Then you factor in the usual right wing troglodytes banging on about (their version of) freedom and it's a non starter.