Well vs Dons

[RicoS321]

Dorrington on his wrong foot. Definite pen.

[OxfordDon]

That's a pretty big nail in Thelin's coffin.

[Kowalski]

Definitely a pen at the end there but we’re a complete shambles up front. 

[RicoS321]

Feel sorry for the defence to be honest. Mitov has been good all season, and he makes a glaring error. I think he thought the guy was placing it in the far corner, but he seemed to mishit it and it caught Mitov out (after Palaversa being weak as hell again). Dorrington with a shite attempt on his wrong side. However, it was 89 minutes of lacking from the front three, with some really good opportunities being missed. It throws every ounce of pressure on the defence and they make errors. We had several good opportunities to get a goal, and we failed miserably, but it'll look like defensive errors that cost us, rather than attacking ones. The change of shape was fine, generally, and we coped with most things and won a lot of good possession on the press, but did nothing with it. Not our worst performance of the season by a long stretch. I don't think we can afford guys like Aouchiche in the team at the moment, he adds nothing. Perhaps when/if we're in better form he can come back in.

[redordead]

I agree on the aouchice front. Didn't really make an impact apart from one pass.

I thought karlsson looked very good for the first half hour. 

Still not sure why topi came on. After last week I expected to see bilalovic get more time. Also felt that lazetic offered a lot more effort and presence than nisbet and hopefully he comes good.

Too many changes too early changed the momentum and we looked unsettled/desperate. 

Gyamfi is pish, McKenzie was miles better. Palaversa tried to reach across his own body for the first, lazy and costly. 

Upside, we made chances.

[RicoS321]

1 hour ago, redordead said:

Gyamfi is pish, McKenzie was miles better. Palaversa tried to reach across his own body for the first, lazy and costly.

Agreed on Gyamfi, but he's probably better than MacKenzie was at his age. I don't think Palaversa was necessarily lazy, he just looked fucked. Again. He doesn't seem able to play 90 minutes. 

Topi coming on at wing back was fine, he works hard, and did so tonight. Bilalovic could easily have come on for Aouchiche though. With Jensen and Devlin behind him, he'd have been fine. I thought he looked half decent in the small amount of time we've seen him, but I'm willing to accept that it's not a huge sample. The current sample of Aouchiche isn't great though.

[Panda]

It's easy to throw more mud at Thelin.

However, the criticisms that he's too stubborn or sticks with his favourites wasn't evident tonight. He changed formation, and made six changes to the line-up. We've gifted them the game at the end there (human errors), and yes there's obviously still criticisms (should Aouchiche stayed on for as long, should Lazetic been on earlier, etc). But in the main he got most things right tonight. If the strikers take their chances we win the game, and at worst it looked like we would at least walk away with a draw.

We should be saying it was far from a perfect performance but there was positives to take. At no point tonight did I think we had a team who weren't playing for the manager, or a manager with no clue what to do.

Instead it's rock bottom minus three.

I think he gets the next two games and if we lose both the outside noise will be too much and the board - not wanting to take any responsibility themselves - will sack him, move for Stephen Robinson, and that'll be the three-year plan binned until another manager announces one.

 

[dons8321]

2 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

Agreed on Gyamfi, but he's probably better than MacKenzie was at his age. I don't think Palaversa was necessarily lazy, he just looked fucked. Again. He doesn't seem able to play 90 minutes. 

Topi coming on at wing back was fine, he works hard, and did so tonight. Bilalovic could easily have come on for Aouchiche though. With Jensen and Devlin behind him, he'd have been fine. I thought he looked half decent in the small amount of time we've seen him, but I'm willing to accept that it's not a huge sample. The current sample of Aouchiche isn't great though.

Don't think Gyamfi is piss, he's just not a FB, his run and cross in the first couple of minutes was excellent but he was exposed frequently when Well played the crossfield pass which drew Knoester out of position.

[OrlandoDon]

Thought we were very unlucky today, not great but one of our better if not best league performance to date. We created a few chances and the first goal is a freak goal, kills the game. Luck is not on our side. Also thought we had more width today. Would prob like us to stay 3 at the back with devlin and gyamfi or frame at wing back. Maybe Armstrong was rested, but switch him in alongside shinnie and palaversa gives us enough strength and mobility, plus shinnie and Armstrong can push up. Wouldn’t mind seeing karlsson alongside lazetic, nisbet just doesn’t do it for me, not nearly mobile or active enough.

topi drive me nuts with the run and shot into the side netting, square it and we score if I recall. Also no clue why lazetic doesn’t chip the keeper right before their goal, seemed to have the time, space, ball in the right position, and keeper off his line.

thought tobers did ok, did he get injured?

i think we have seen jimmy change players and formations. Just wish we’d done that in preseason with more games and possibly a bounce game or two early midweek to blood new players. We’re playing catch up on the fly which is very difficult.

still really unclear as to our tactics or style of play, no clue what we are trying to do when we have the ball. Also feel we are still really poor in attack. It’s pretty easy to play passes square and back between defenders and midfield, but our play between midfielders and attackers, and our play in the opponents final third isn’t good.

Edited Sunday at 00:42 by OrlandoDon

[Jute]

Thought we played okay tonight and probably deserved to get a draw. Don’t think we created much going forward and never looked like scoring. Looks like we have signed another full back who cannot defend in Gyamfi. Cannot get bringing Dorrington on to play on his wrong side when Molloy was on the bench. Unlucky with first goal with Mitov being undone with miss hit shot.
 

Fear for Thelin now as fully expect to get our arses handed to us by Shaktar before el sackio derby against Dundee next Sunday.

Thankfully I am currently out my tits on liquid morphine so not really that bothered. 

[RicoS321]

6 hours ago, Jute said:

Thankfully I am currently out my tits on liquid morphine so not really that bothered

If you read the bottle, one of the symptoms is seeing Irish defenders on benches, who aren't actually there.

[Jute]

I would swear the pink elephant I was watching game with said he was on the bench. 

[tlg1903]

I actually thought we played pretty well against a good team all things considered.  Their goalie pulls off 2 great saves and I thought we should have had a pen as well for the shoulder charge in the box. Thelin was not the problem yesterday. 

[RicoS321]

26 minutes ago, tlg1903 said:

I thought we should have had a pen as well for the shoulder charge in the box.

I'd hate to see pens given for that. Good strong defensive shoulder. Could possibly argue that it wasn't perfectly shoulder to shoulder, but it was as near as. Thelin should be looking at that opportunity as evidence as to why Aouchiche shouldn't be starting, and especially not in a wide role. It's not getting much mention, but it was easily as good a chance as Lazetic's. He could have taken the ball on his chest instead of letting it through his body. Failing that he could have got his body in front of the Motherwell player and forced the penalty. To not get a shot off in that situation was criminal. 

[tlg1903]

25 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

I'd hate to see pens given for that. Good strong defensive shoulder. Could possibly argue that it wasn't perfectly shoulder to shoulder, but it was as near as. Thelin should be looking at that opportunity as evidence as to why Aouchiche shouldn't be starting, and especially not in a wide role. It's not getting much mention, but it was easily as good a chance as Lazetic's. He could have taken the ball on his chest instead of letting it through his body. Failing that he could have got his body in front of the Motherwell player and forced the penalty. To not get a shot off in that situation was criminal. 

Just because you're using your shoulder doesn't mean you get to push over opponents because you're not in a position to use your feet to make a challenge without going through the player.   Aouchiche was in full control of the ball and the defender is still behind him when he makes challenge.  With how the game  is now on contact that was a pen all day long imo. 

All that said though you're not wrong about Aouchiche needing to do a lot better with the chance. 

[RicoS321]

25 minutes ago, tlg1903 said:

Just because you're using your shoulder doesn't mean you get to push over opponents because you're not in a position to use your feet to make a challenge without going through the player.   Aouchiche was in full control of the ball and the defender is still behind him when he makes challenge.  With how the game  is now on contact that was a pen all day long imo. 

All that said though you're not wrong about Aouchiche needing to do a lot better with the chance. 

Shoulder to shoulder has never been a foul in football though, it doesn't matter if the player is in control of the ball or not. I think you'd struggle to make a case that it wasn't shoulder to shoulder.

[tlg1903]

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

Shoulder to shoulder has never been a foul in football though, it doesn't matter if the player is in control of the ball or not. I think you'd struggle to make a case that it wasn't shoulder to shoulder.

That depends on the context.  You can still make a foul from a shoulder to shoulder contact and knocking someone over when they are in possession of the ball without making any attempt to actually win the ball because the player is in the way is usually a foul.  If he had used his shoulder to come across Aouchiche whilst making a legitimate attempt for the ball I would have no complaints as long as he's not fouling in the process.  He's not though, he just takes Aouchiche out.  Pen all day long for me.  

[Panda]

I agree with Rico here. Aouchiche should be at the very least getting a shot on goal there. 
 

And I agree with TLG here, I don't think he's making an attempt to win the ball there, just charging into him and knocking him over. At no point is that a 50/50 challenge.

[RicoS321]

But those aren't the rules of the game, unless I'm mistaken? A shoulder barge is completely acceptable (and always has been) if it's shoulder to shoulder, and the ball is within playing distance (and nothing to do with attempting to win the ball)? Has something changed? It's seen as fair game, an equal battle, where nobody gets hurt. We can't be taking that out of the game surely? 

Edited Sunday at 18:51 by RicoS321

[dons8321]

2 hours ago, Panda said:

I agree with Rico here. Aouchiche should be at the very least getting a shot on goal there. 
 

And I agree with TLG here, I don't think he's making an attempt to win the ball there, just charging into him and knocking him over. At no point is that a 50/50 challenge.

From those photos it appears that Achouchie is about 5 yards (old money) ahead of the defender who not only gets back to challenge him but actually gets goal side of him and then barges him off the ball...from the shit viewpoint behind the goal it didn't look like a pen. and still doesn't...he should have enough about him to step inside when he didn't have the confidence to go for goal himself and so actually gets a penalty.  He strikes me as someone, like Palaversa, who thinks he'd playing in a league beneath his abilities so doesn't have to try too hard 

[OrlandoDon]

7 hours ago, tlg1903 said:

That depends on the context.  You can still make a foul from a shoulder to shoulder contact and knocking someone over when they are in possession of the ball without making any attempt to actually win the ball because the player is in the way is usually a foul.  If he had used his shoulder to come across Aouchiche whilst making a legitimate attempt for the ball I would have no complaints as long as he's not fouling in the process.  He's not though, he just takes Aouchiche out.  Pen all day long for me.  

Tend to agree with you, to me a shoulder charge is still while playing the ball, I just felt the defender completely too him out.

[OrlandoDon]

4 hours ago, dons8321 said:

From those photos it appears that Achouchie is about 5 yards (old money) ahead of the defender who not only gets back to challenge him but actually gets goal side of him and then barges him off the ball...from the shit viewpoint behind the goal it didn't look like a pen. and still doesn't...he should have enough about him to step inside when he didn't have the confidence to go for goal himself and so actually gets a penalty.  He strikes me as someone, like Palaversa, who thinks he'd playing in a league beneath his abilities so doesn't have to try too hard 

What gives you the impression palaversa and aouchiche think they are playing a league beneath? I don’t see that.  I think they are two players who excelled early in their careers and have not kicked on to a higher level. We’re giving them that opportunity of playing time in a competitive league that gives them good exposure. Whether aouchiche is good enough, time will tell, but he’s still a relatively new player learning Scottish football, teammates, and demands of a new manager. And he’s a young player. I think he works hard and tries. 

[Panda]

8 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

But those aren't the rules of the game, unless I'm mistaken? A shoulder barge is completely acceptable (and always has been) if it's shoulder to shoulder, and the ball is within playing distance (and nothing to do with attempting to win the ball)? Has something changed? It's seen as fair game, an equal battle, where nobody gets hurt. We can't be taking that out of the game surely? 

I dunno, I'd say someone being in control of the ball then being put on their arse by someone just blatantly knocking them over isn't an equal battle or a fair attempt to win the ball.

Especially if he was to use his foot to knock him over it's a foul.

It might be in the rules. But if it is, I'm saying it's a shite rule.

[RicoS321]

3 hours ago, Panda said:

I dunno, I'd say someone being in control of the ball then being put on their arse by someone just blatantly knocking them over isn't an equal battle or a fair attempt to win the ball.

Especially if he was to use his foot to knock him over it's a foul.

It might be in the rules. But if it is, I'm saying it's a shite rule.

I'm just bewildered that we're talking about the shoulder charge in this way. An integral part of the game forever, and something I thought that we all learned to do as kids. My daughter can't even kick the ball properly, but she definitely knows what a shoulder charge is. 

The best thing about it is that it applies to attacker and defender equally, and by nature of the challenge, they both have to be roughly the same distance from the ball. Imagine Aouchiche had barged the big lad out the way, and smashed it in, because the defender was a fanny? That'd be amazing. Odds are always stacked in favour of the defender, but that's okay. 

Removing the shoulder charge would be up there with installing VAR. You should all be ashamed. 

[RicoS321]

11 hours ago, dons8321 said:

He strikes me as someone, like Palaversa, who thinks he'd playing in a league beneath his abilities so doesn't have to try too hard

The worrying thing is that I don't think you're right. Aouchiche looks exactly like what I was expecting from his YouTube clips. A nice footballer who flatters to deceive. Works hard whilst not actually working hard - in other words, he does all the easy stuff quite well, but never actually does anything. A nothing footballer. He excels at controlling the ball, dropping a shoulder, tracking a man, but he's not great at the incisive early pass, driving with the ball or tackling/intercepting. To the extent that we've already seen him play deeper on a few occasions, where he seems a little bit happier, but where we absolutely do not need another player of that type. He's one of these guys that will trick you into thinking he's good, but he's very easy to play against. I think a scout should have been picking up in it.

In terms of Palaversa, he works his arse off, he just doesn't appear to be able to play more than an hour. He looks absolutely fucked, and it wasn't a surprise to see him flailing around like a gype for their first goal because he was so knackered. He's a 25 year old still playing like a 19 year old. He could be really good otherwise, but I think we're going to have to give up on him at his age. The biggest issue is that it should have been clear that was the case in the summer and we should have been going all out to get a box to box midfielder. Edit: it's like Palaversa is playing with an injury, or long COVID or something, it's the only way to describe it. 

Edited Monday at 07:16 by RicoS321