Author Topic: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding  (Read 33183 times)

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Offline RicoS321

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2019, 11:27:27 AM »
steve clarke doesnt need a proper budget but gets more out of his players ...

I don't think that there is any question that Clarke is the best manager in the league. He's also out of our budget now. Killie pay half as much as us with a similar squad size. Not sure how that is made up in terms of earners, but given that they were matching us in the offer to Stewart it wouldn't be inconceivable to think that they had 4-5 players on similar contracts to some of our first teamers. I would think that Clarke has a far greater success rate with his signings, which makes a huge difference in cutting the gap between the budgets. I imagine that our average wage without Wilson, Hoban, Gleeson and Forrester (vs any crap signings they've made) would be massively reduced. Adding in GMS - missing for half a season - and our expensively assembled first team actually looks quite cheap. It'd be really interesting to get an idea of individual's wages (even just in wage-brackets) so we could actually work out a weighted team cost based on minutes on the pitch. I think our failings in the transfer market would leave us without a huge advantage over Killie. Not only does Clarke get more out of his players, but he gets better value for money on signings than any other team in the league. It's impressive like.


Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2019, 12:27:14 PM »
but you need good guys on the ground ensuring the players they highlight fit into our system and will add value to the first team/squad

Agree we need good scouts but what is "our system"? I've never seen one.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 12:30:29 PM by rocket_scientist »
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Offline kiriakovisthenewstrachan

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2019, 12:45:52 PM »
Clarke has done well, no doubt about it but let's not get carried away. He has had one exceptional season by Killie standards but he has not won anything and not qualified for Europe yet either. Pre-Kilmarnock his record as a manager was very mixed, he had not pulled up many trees which is the reason he is at Rugby Park and not somewhere else. Let's see what happens next season when he is forced to rebuild and judge him properly then.

There has been a lot of hype about Clarke but we have had managers up here winning things with the likes of Caley, Ross County and St Johnstone so let's not get too excited by one really good season.


Offline Ten Caat

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2019, 12:59:40 PM »
I don't think that there is any question that Clarke is the best manager in the league. He's also out of our budget now. Killie pay half as much as us with a similar squad size. Not sure how that is made up in terms of earners, but given that they were matching us in the offer to Stewart it wouldn't be inconceivable to think that they had 4-5 players on similar contracts to some of our first teamers. I would think that Clarke has a far greater success rate with his signings, which makes a huge difference in cutting the gap between the budgets. I imagine that our average wage without Wilson, Hoban, Gleeson and Forrester (vs any crap signings they've made) would be massively reduced. Adding in GMS - missing for half a season - and our expensively assembled first team actually looks quite cheap. It'd be really interesting to get an idea of individual's wages (even just in wage-brackets) so we could actually work out a weighted team cost based on minutes on the pitch. I think our failings in the transfer market would leave us without a huge advantage over Killie. Not only does Clarke get more out of his players, but he gets better value for money on signings than any other team in the league. It's impressive like.

Don't agree about the wages. In the average wages of 2017, we were 3rd highest in SPFL at £2630/week. Killie were down in 8th at £1060/week. They got Stewart on loan on a very cheap contribution to his Birmingham weekly wage of £6k/week. (£1500/week). We were paying £2500/week in his first spell with us. They got him so cheaply as there was nobody else that wanted him!

Admittedly, Clarke got him playing well for him in a system where he was not expected to do any defensive donkey work. That got us interested again and Birmingham (whose financial problems are well publicised) saw an opportunity to get a higher portion of his wages covered again ( rumoured again to be £2.5k/week). Killie obviously saw the value he brought to them and agreed to match our offer but by then the deal was done with us....unsurprisingly with his Birmingham contract coming to an end (and possibly already with the promise of a contract from us in the summer) he chose to rejoin us with the chance to put himself in the shop window at a club with a far higher level of media exposure.

What is undeniable is that Clarke for sure is getting far better value out of his squad and his recruitment "hit or miss" level is far more impressive than Mcinnes'. As you say, he is out of our league now as his next move when he inevitably leaves Killie will be either  to the English Championship as a manager outright or the English Premiership as an assistant......either option on wages far higher than we could get close to ( there is maybe a small chance that Celtic would consider him for their hotseat, especially if Lennon doesn't win them the Scottish Cup).

Offline RicoS321

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2019, 01:20:18 PM »
Don't agree about the wages. In the average wages of 2017, we were 3rd highest in SPFL at £2630/week. Killie were down in 8th at £1060/week. They got Stewart on loan on a very cheap contribution to his Birmingham weekly wage of £6k/week. (£1500/week). We were paying £2500/week in his first spell with us. They got him so cheaply as there was nobody else that wanted him!

According to Statista, as at Nov18 we were averaging £138.67pa (3rd), with them on £62.82 (7th). I said double as opposed to 45/100. We're in agreement on Stewart, regardless of the circumstances.

What I meant about them matching wages is that because of our shite signings, several of our first 11 will be on similar wages. Our higher earners like Wilson and Gleeson (presumably, given he was signed as a first 11 players) take the average up whilst sitting on the bench, whereas their higher earners will be on the pitch. Thus their higher earners vs our below average earners will greatly reduce the perceived budget gap. Guys like Jones, Power, Dicker, Broadfoot, Bachmann, O-Donnell will be on similar wages to the likes of Ball, Considine, Ferguson and Cosgrove.

Offline ayrshire_don74

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2019, 01:25:09 PM »
Question is if Killie finish above us does that tell us something ? On average we pay double per player per week although given the data it could be more, curiously Killie appear to have more listed first team players than us- might be more reserve/youth playing.

Admittedly Clarke took over in October 2017 and a lot of the signings werent his but then managed to get far more out them than Mcculloch

DM has won one trophy , Clarkes arguably has had 2 good seasons
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Offline RicoS321

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2019, 01:50:31 PM »
Question is if Killie finish above us does that tell us something ? On average we pay double per player per week although given the data it could be more, curiously Killie appear to have more listed first team players than us- might be more reserve/youth playing.

Admittedly Clarke took over in October 2017 and a lot of the signings werent his but then managed to get far more out them than Mcculloch

DM has won one trophy , Clarkes arguably has had 2 good seasons

It tells us that Clarke is a better manager, but I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. Regardless of Clarke winning a trophy or not, he's done an excellent job, and he's sustained it beyond just the season that he took over, showing that it wasn't just "new manager bounce". He's significantly better than both Levein and Lennon (tbc Heckingbottom) too which suggests that it's not peculiar to McInnes.

The average is based on total wages/squad size so squad size not totally relevant. As I said, poor signings meant we've probably got a disproportionally expensive bench, which I don't think Killie do to the same extent.

I think the McCulloch - Clarke comparison is no different to the Brown - McInnes one. McInnes took us from 8th - 3rd with a lot of players from the Brown era who he just got to play better along with a few good signings (you could compare Robson with Mulumbu for example). It'll be interesting to see how Clarke gets on with re-building. I expect a lot of his signings to date have been from his recent past (watching, as well as working with). The less time he gets to watch other leagues will mean he has to rely on the Killie scouts a lot more (in the way McInnes has with us). If he has to rely on the judgement of others, I wonder it if will upset the cart a little. I don't know if he's added his own people to that area or not of course.

Offline Ramperbamper

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2019, 08:42:11 AM »
Let's see what happens next season when he is forced to rebuild and judge him properly then.

Absolutely this.

A fairer comparison might be between the first 18 months of Clarke at Killie compared to the first 18 months of McInnes at Aberdeen. We had a trophy in the bag, had shifted right up the league and progressed in Europe. All relative in terms of budgets etc but I certainly wouldn't agree that McInnes comes off second best in that context.

Where McInnes is percieved to have struggled is when he's lost his better players and has struggled to replace them with equivalent quality. When we signed McLean in 2015, as an example, Sevco/Hearts/Hibs were all basket case Championship clubs so we had a relatively free run at getting him. If he was a young player at St Mirren now, we'd have far more competition to sign him and would be a major coup if we did - even Celtic would probably be sniffing around as they stockpile young Scottish players (e.g Morgan)

As McInnes himself has alluded to - replacing Hayes and McLean at their peak with similar level replacements at their peak is difficult. The next best thing is signing guys like Ferguson and giving McLennan/Campbell etc good game time, albeit signings like Forrester have disappointed - but the idea that there's a wealth of ready made Kenny McLeans and Jonny Hayes waiting for us to come and sign which McInnes is ignoring is ridiculous. Clarke will have the same issues which McInnes has when he loses his players en masse - albeit I suspect it'll be even harder for him given Kilmarnock have a smaller budget than we do.


Offline manc_don

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2019, 08:54:26 AM »
Absolutely this.

A fairer comparison might be between the first 18 months of Clarke at Killie compared to the first 18 months of McInnes at Aberdeen. We had a trophy in the bag, had shifted right up the league and progressed in Europe. All relative in terms of budgets etc but I certainly wouldn't agree that McInnes comes off second best in that context.

Where McInnes is percieved to have struggled is when he's lost his better players and has struggled to replace them with equivalent quality. When we signed McLean in 2015, as an example, Sevco/Hearts/Hibs were all basket case Championship clubs so we had a relatively free run at getting him. If he was a young player at St Mirren now, we'd have far more competition to sign him and would be a major coup if we did - even Celtic would probably be sniffing around as they stockpile young Scottish players (e.g Morgan)

As McInnes himself has alluded to - replacing Hayes and McLean at their peak with similar level replacements at their peak is difficult. The next best thing is signing guys like Ferguson and giving McLennan/Campbell etc good game time, albeit signings like Forrester have disappointed - but the idea that there's a wealth of ready made Kenny McLeans and Jonny Hayes waiting for us to come and sign which McInnes is ignoring is ridiculous. Clarke will have the same issues which McInnes has when he loses his players en masse - albeit I suspect it'll be even harder for him given Kilmarnock have a smaller budget than we do.

Excellent post  :thumbsup:

Offline BigAl

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2019, 01:42:17 PM »
Considine offered new contract allegedly
Steve warm his seat up

Online KennyFuckinPowers

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2019, 04:01:42 PM »
And Shiinie now in Derby, holding talks with them. Been pictured at their Stadium & BBC Sport Scotland now reporting it.
It's a math class, the whole deal. Just like every math class, there's a clown in the front, and everybody hates this clown because he raises his hand, he's answering all the questions. What do we do? Move on. Just fucking move on, ready or not. He's deciding we got to move on, he knows his math, I hadn't even figured out about Santa Claus yet.

Offline BigAl

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2019, 04:03:09 PM »
And Shiinie now in Derby, holding talks with them. Been pictured at their Stadium & BBC Sport Scotland now reporting it.

Sorry to see him go, but by fuck thats a bigger move than I thought he'd get.
Good luck to him, will go with my best wishes
Steve warm his seat up

Offline Ten Caat

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2019, 06:13:20 PM »
Honestly think if we were in the English Championship we would be pretty much neck and neck with Derby. Guffball is vastly overrated despite the cash.

Obviously if he does sign with them it will secure him financially for life. He's given us the best years of his career and should leave with everyone's best wishes.

Offline TheDeeDon

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2019, 07:41:21 PM »
Agree we need good scouts but what is "our system"? I've never seen one.

A fair question, but I'm fucked if I know. 

Offline TheDeeDon

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2019, 07:46:51 PM »
I'll admit I'll miss Shinnie, but if he has to go I do hope it's England.

One of my favourite players for a long time in the Aberdeen jersey and loved his approach and committment.

We haven't replaced either Mclean or Hayes yet, so not holding my breath in replacing Shinnie anytime soon and have no idea who will step up to be captain, I don't think there are many leaders in our team. I would say Logan is the strongest candidate, but I feel is wouldn't help his performaces on the pitch, which haven't been that great overall this season.

Offline Ten Caat

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2019, 08:01:30 PM »
I'll admit I'll miss Shinnie, but if he has to go I do hope it's England.

One of my favourite players for a long time in the Aberdeen jersey and loved his approach and committment.

We haven't replaced either Mclean or Hayes yet, so not holding my breath in replacing Shinnie anytime soon and have no idea who will step up to be captain, I don't think there are many leaders in our team. I would say Logan is the strongest candidate, but I feel is wouldn't help his performaces on the pitch, which haven't been that great overall this season.

Not even convinced Logan will be an automatic choice next season.....we tried to sign Naismith to replace him last summer. The obvious candidate would be McKenna but he might not be around much longer either so....presuming he's fit...I think we will go with Devlin.

Online KennyFuckinPowers

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2019, 11:43:16 AM »
Apparently we tried to sign a Striker called Adam Le Fondre in the Summer last year but he opted to go to Australia, either that, or we have approached him with a view to signing him this summer, you'll need to forgive me, I saw it on Twitter so never really paid complete attention.

If it's the latter, then he is currently 32yo, plays for Sydney FC and has a pretty decent record from his time in England between 2007 & 2014, since then, the goals haven't been as free flowing. Has a slight tinge of Nicky Maynard about it in that it looks like a McInnes signing. Of course, it could be that we approached him last year so there is nothing in it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_le_Fondre


It's a math class, the whole deal. Just like every math class, there's a clown in the front, and everybody hates this clown because he raises his hand, he's answering all the questions. What do we do? Move on. Just fucking move on, ready or not. He's deciding we got to move on, he knows his math, I hadn't even figured out about Santa Claus yet.

Offline Elgindon

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2019, 12:44:32 PM »

 Shinnie almost a cert for Derby,and the Stewart to the Hun rumour looks true,@£10k per week

Offline manc_don

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2019, 12:44:46 PM »
Apparently we tried to sign a Striker called Adam Le Fondre in the Summer last year but he opted to go to Australia, either that, or we have approached him with a view to signing him this summer, you'll need to forgive me, I saw it on Twitter so never really paid complete attention.

If it's the latter, then he is currently 32yo, plays for Sydney FC and has a pretty decent record from his time in England between 2007 & 2014, since then, the goals haven't been as free flowing. Has a slight tinge of Nicky Maynard about it in that it looks like a McInnes signing. Of course, it could be that we approached him last year so there is nothing in it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_le_Fondre


Le Fondre knows where the goal is and scores plenty of decent goals in the aleague. Hell, i'd happily see him go back to the UK and leave those blue bastards. Remember him being good at Reading too.

Offline Ten Caat

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Re: Season 2019/2020 Rebuilding
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2019, 01:17:01 PM »
Shinnie almost a cert for Derby,and the Stewart to the Hun rumour looks true,@£10k per week

Just find it strange why if it were true, sevco haven't already got him on a pre-contract to stop us (who I believe are his only serious pursuers) signing him up.

And £10k/week is just ridiculous. He was on £6k/week at Birmingham who would have let him sign for anyone for free the past 2 years if they would cover his wages. No one was interested..... yet sevco are now not only going to match those wages but actually increase them by 66%?????? I can see why sevco might have been interested in Shinnie, purely to deprive us of his services even if he wouldn't have played particularly often due to their surfeit of midfielders competing for a place. Stewart I'd presume would be used as a number 10 which they do have a need for.....but only if they completely abandon their 4/3/3 system that they've used pretty much exclusively since Gerrard was appointed.

As I've said before.....I'll believe it when I see it. I really hope it is true as it will prevent McInnes handing him a 3 or 4 year contract on money close to or matching his Birmingham wages.