Author Topic: Shay Logan  (Read 11129 times)

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Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2015, 10:58:13 AM »
Don't let it ruin your argument or anything but I've acknowledged he had a dip in form on numerous occasions. (Including my first post...)   :-*

So you dismiss those of us who were there, who were watching, over many years when we say McGinn had an extended period of a dip in form (that we now agree on) as having clouded judgement based on one incident only and yet you do not offer an alternative cause for the symptom?

Before you vehemently deny that he was ever not trying hard enough, you must have formed your own alternative explanation, one that is such a big secret you're not going to share it.
 
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Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2015, 11:11:55 AM »
I think McGinn is a superb asset, I don't think anyone disputes that.  Even when he's out of form, he's still often the man most likely to do something as he's got the skill to create something out of nothing.

Agreed.


He has gone through a couple of prolonged spells of not scoring or not quite contributing as much as he can.  I'd argue that that isn't anything to do with a lack of effort or commitment to the cause from the loon but simply down to the margins of error involved.  Last season as an example, he had about 4 or 5 games on the bounce where he hit the woodwork.

I can't remember "a couple of prolonged spells". I remember one extended period that lasted many weeks and therefore months. This was before he was hitting the woodwork last season. We are not talking about the same time period. He was miles better last season and back to close to his potential quality, which is undoubted.

That it happened at all and for as long as it did is down to either the player, his manager or both. Whilst his form has been miles better for the last year and a bit than it was when - insert reason for his non-performance during season 2013/14 - he's still never hit the same heights that I believe he's capable of, as he showed three years ago when he was hungry as hell, scoring for fun and buzzing all over the pitch.

Our best player, back to making good contributions to the cause and one who is overdue to do something against his beloved hoops. We've never competed with Celtic, neither head-to-head nor for the league. To do so, we need every player performing their best and a manager who puts out a well organised and well motivated unit. It may be that the Norwegian is a better manager than McInnes. It is more probable that they have better technical players all over the pitch. Christ we haven't had a competent keeper for over a decade until a couple of months ago. But the game isn't won on technical ability alone so our failing to get close to Celtic for years has other reasons. I hope it's this season that we finally break through but I reckon the bookies have got it right, again, unfortunately.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 11:16:03 AM by rocket_scientist »
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Offline Edinburghdon

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2015, 11:15:17 AM »
So you dismiss those of us who were there, who were watching, over many years when we say McGinn had an extended period of a dip in form (that we now agree on) as having clouded judgement based on one incident only and yet you do not offer an alternative cause for the symptom?

Before you vehemently deny that he was ever not trying hard enough, you must have formed your own alternative explanation, one that is such a big secret you're not going to share it.

This is getting tiresome now and totally off topic...

I've already stated that he has suffered from dips in form, which you've conveniently ignored and claimed I hadn't a couple of times now and I've already said I do not believe its due to a lack of effort. I've also already said that it could be caused by a loss of confidence, struggling adapting to a new role, slight injuries or most likely a combination of some/all of those. Continuing to claim I've not acknowledged the fact he's had spells when his form has dipped or that I haven't offered possible explainations for this based on my opinion is incorrect, reading back through my replies will show you that.

As mentioned last night it's my opinion (based on what I've seen, with my own eyes, at games, in the Aberdeen end) that he's never looked like he's lacking in effort or isn't trying during his dips in form. What you're having trouble with in that I have no idea but I stand by my opinion.

Now... Shay Logan...

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2015, 11:19:42 AM »
This is getting tiresome now and totally off topic...

I've already stated that he has suffered from dips in form, which you've conveniently ignored and claimed I hadn't a couple of times now and I've already said I do not believe its due to a lack of effort. I've also already said that it could be caused by a loss of confidence, struggling adapting to a new role, slight injuries or most likely a combination of some/all of those. Continuing to claim I've not acknowledged the fact he's had spells when his form has dipped or that I haven't offered possible explainations for this based on my opinion is incorrect, reading back through my replies will show you that.

As mentioned last night it's my opinion (based on what I've seen, with my own eyes, at games, in the Aberdeen end) that he's never looked like he's lacking in effort or isn't trying during his dips in form. What you're having trouble with in that I have no idea but I stand by my opinion.

Now... Shay Logan...

Ok, I misunderstood. I apologise. You did acknowledge that he has suffered dips in form.

Your haughty dismissal of his not suffering a lack of effort and suggesting that the vast majority of us who do think this (in the real world, as we saw with our own eyes and were discussing for months) were so stupid as to cloud our judgement based on that one incident was objectionable. Particularly when you acknowledge you don't have an alternative view and were just speculating and floundering when pushed.
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Offline Edinburghdon

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2015, 11:28:26 AM »
Ok, I misunderstood. I apologise. You did acknowledge that he has suffered dips in form.

Your haughty dismissal of his not suffering a lack of effort and suggesting that the vast majority of us who do think this (in the real world, as we saw with our own eyes and were discussing for months) were so stupid as to cloud our judgement based on that one incident was objectionable. Particularly when you acknowledge you don't have an alternative view and were just speculating and floundering when pushed.

Nonsense, I've offered alternative views numerous times now. If you refuse to see that then there's not much I can do...

Although unless you're Niall McGinn it is all just speculation.

Offline thestooge

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2015, 11:38:12 AM »
Agreed.


I can't remember "a couple of prolonged spells". I remember one extended period that lasted many weeks and therefore months. This was before he was hitting the woodwork last season. We are not talking about the same time period. He was miles better last season and back to close to his potential quality, which is undoubted.



The longest period was around the turn of the year the season before last.  It lasted about three months.  I got called a cunt on Aberdeen-Mad on a daily basis for pointing out that he wasn't delivering his usual return and for suggesting his business interests and prolific shagging were perhaps distractions.  Others suggested it was due to his different role in the team and those margins of errors.  I think they were probably right and my speculation was off the mark. 

He did have a prolonged spell last season, during which he was hitting the woodwork frequently, from the end of August through until the start of Dec where he didn't score.  That was in excess of ten games.  He also only scored 1 goal last season from mid-Feb until the end of the season, just the 1 goal in 12 games.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2015, 11:50:04 AM »
The longest period was around the turn of the year the season before last.  It lasted about three months.  I got called a cunt on Aberdeen-Mad on a daily basis for pointing out that he wasn't delivering his usual return and for suggesting his business interests and prolific shagging were perhaps distractions.  Others suggested it was due to his different role in the team and those margins of errors.  I think they were probably right and my speculation was off the mark. 

He did have a prolonged spell last season, during which he was hitting the woodwork frequently, from the end of August through until the start of Dec where he didn't score.  That was in excess of ten games.  He also only scored 1 goal last season from mid-Feb until the end of the season, just the 1 goal in 12 games.

Now we have consensus. It was about three months or so in the season 2013/14 from my memory when he looked disinterested and wasn't producing, as the whole team weren't of course. The reasons for this are what we're speculating on. I say that it is the role of the manager to first identify this and then to fix it. We, in the pubs and attending the games, were all wanting McGinn to be dropped, to get a kick up the arse, to remind him that this level of performance and commitment was unacceptable. SAF got rid of much lesser footballers than McGinn for the same crime but it isn't fair to compare AFC of 30 years ago with the AFC today. We were a good football team then, capable of winning the league, something this squad still isn't deep enough to do.

It's also not fair to compare the best manger in history with a relatively young, inexperienced and as yet un-proven one that is the present incumbent, although he's doing well and is the best we've had for decades.

There is an entitlement culture within young sportsmen today. There isn't the same passion and commitment generally, not just in football. The die for the jersey mentality has become increasingly rare. McGinn the best we have but if he had, or was managed, inspired and coached to have the requisite killer mentality, he wouldn't be here. It's his number one failing in my book and the reason why he's playing for us and will never reach his full potential.

Logan isn't nearly as strong or as skilled a footballer but he never fails to give his all. A good manager demands getting total effort all the time from all of the players. The best and most successful teams have this as a given.
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Offline BobbyBiscuit

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2015, 12:43:20 PM »

He did have a prolonged spell last season, during which he was hitting the woodwork frequently, from the end of August through until the start of Dec where he didn't score.  That was in excess of ten games.  He also only scored 1 goal last season from mid-Feb until the end of the season, just the 1 goal in 12 games.

Although I'd expect McGinn to score more goals than he did last season, i think a more accurate measure of his effectiveness (if we must use stats) will be his assists and there's no one better than him for that.
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Offline Edinburghdon

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2015, 12:51:09 PM »
Although I'd expect McGinn to score more goals than he did last season, i think a more accurate measure of his effectiveness (if we must use stats) will be his assists and there's no one better than him for that.

Based on his role in the team McInnes sets out I'd agree completely.

Offline thestooge

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2015, 12:53:19 PM »
I dinna disagree either.  I'd also say that, in the past, McGinn would have been on penalty duty and his goal tally inflated as a result.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #50 on: September 08, 2015, 12:55:06 PM »
Although I'd expect McGinn to score more goals than he did last season, i think a more accurate measure of his effectiveness (if we must use stats) will be his assists and there's no one better than him for that.

A better gauge is just to watch the games.

I'm a huge advocate of the use of data and facts but stats in football is in its relative infancy.

The most stupid stat is the measure of a goalkeeper by referring to clean sheets of course but the same two players can have "an assist", one was brilliant skill and the other fortuitous. One lost the ball the whole game and contributed nothing whereas the other broke up everything the opposition threw at us.

Like you said, stats aren't particularly useful in football. McGinn is still our best talent because he is, not cos of stats, either goals or assists. He's also not, in the last two years delivered the full extent of what he's capable of....

apart from the opening game of this season.

McInnes is often maligned about his use of subs or the lack of. Against DUFC, a game that was going nowhere, a draw written all over it, the subs changed the game. McGinn in particular was sharp and incisive and started delivering quality into the box, something we hadn't been able to do from after the first 5 or 10 minutes (a couple of good runs from Hayes). The stats won't say that McGinn had any goals or assists that day but he was instrumental in injecting pace and urgency into our team that day, a fantastic last 20 minutes.
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Offline BobbyBiscuit

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #51 on: September 08, 2015, 01:09:55 PM »
A better gauge is just to watch the games.
I'm a huge advocate of the use of data and facts but stats in football is in its relative infancy.

The most stupid stat is the measure of a goalkeeper by referring to clean sheets of course but the same two players can have "an assist", one was brilliant skill and the other fortuitous. One lost the ball the whole game and contributed nothing whereas the other broke up everything the opposition threw at us.

Like you said, stats aren't particularly useful in football. McGinn is still our best talent because he is, not cos of stats, either goals or assists. He's also not, in the last two years delivered the full extent of what he's capable of....


Completely agree. The stats which are thrown about for football are so inconsequential a lot of the time - they are produced for the sake of producing stats, another talking point for limited commentators.

What stats would we have used for guys like Simpson and Grant? Guys who broke play up and started attacks and would often try to get on the end of attacks they'd started on the edge of their own areas. I've yet to see a stat that would give a clear indication of this. But if you watch the game you'd know.
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Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2015, 01:40:16 PM »
Completely agree. The stats which are thrown about for football are so inconsequential a lot of the time - they are produced for the sake of producing stats, another talking point for limited commentators.

What stats would we have used for guys like Simpson and Grant? Guys who broke play up and started attacks and would often try to get on the end of attacks they'd started on the edge of their own areas. I've yet to see a stat that would give a clear indication of this. But if you watch the game you'd know.

With the proviso that many "fans" aren't qualified to know because they are unable to see. Grant and Simpson are excellent examples.

You correctly identified that "professionals" in the game are "limited" so we can imagine how lacking "amateurs" are.

People who haven't played the game or who haven't studied it or who simply aren't old enough to know anything fill up a lot of space in the various forums, almost all of it shite and mostly driven by a need to have their own "limited" voice heard.

It's the culture we live in. Whilst I agree that the "respect your elders" that we got taught was shite - because age alone is not a guarantee that they are worthy of respect - it is fact that experience alone brings wisdom. I learn from a huge variety of sources including from kids. Many, including the young, are incapable of learning at all, having fixed maps and never having been taught to think properly, let alone critically. They are the product of declining education standards, of political agendas including political correctness. Blair's saturation of tertiary education numbers might have won him a few points on an imaginary scale of economics but it was a disaster for education, as every experienced university professor will attest, the damage having been done at school level with shocking levels of basic numeracy and literacy.
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Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2015, 01:51:35 PM »
Based on his role in the team McInnes sets out I'd agree completely.

What role does McInnes set out for McGinn?

What role does he set out for Goodwillie?
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Offline Edinburghdon

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #54 on: September 08, 2015, 02:47:37 PM »
What role does McInnes set out for McGinn?

What role does he set out for Goodwillie?

Well based on what I've seen he has transitioned from the focal point of our attack under brown to more of a creative role nowadays. Rather than being deployed through the middle he's been providing more width usually, cutting in when the situation arises.

That's only based on what I've seen though, I'm sure it varies depending on the opposition.

With goodwillie he seems to have been asked to play up top in Europe and mainly tasked with holding the ball up waiting for support from midfield to arrive before bringing them into play, it's a role he's done reasonably well but it's definitely reduced the amount of chances he's had/created for himself.  From memory he managed to get in behind on a couple occasions which I think he could be doing more of, that's just my opinion though. I've been on holiday the last couple of weeks so I've missed the couple of games when he was played up front with Rooney from the start, I'd be interested to see how that's been working out from more than just the highlights.

Saying that, I'm sure most of that is completely wrong.... Just my observations.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2015, 02:57:56 PM »
Well based on what I've seen he has transitioned from the focal point of our attack under brown to more of a creative role nowadays. Rather than being deployed through the middle he's been providing more width usually, cutting in when the situation arises.

That's only based on what I've seen though, I'm sure it varies depending on the opposition.

With goodwillie he seems to have been asked to play up top in Europe and mainly tasked with holding the ball up waiting for support from midfield to arrive before bringing them into play, it's a role he's done reasonably well but it's definitely reduced the amount of chances he's had/created for himself.  From memory he managed to get in behind on a couple occasions which I think he could be doing more of, that's just my opinion though. I've been on holiday the last couple of weeks so I've missed the couple of games when he was played up front with Rooney from the start, I'd be interested to see how that's been working out from more than just the highlights.

Saying that, I'm sure most of that is completely wrong.... Just my observations.


Have more confidence in yourself man!

The reason I asked about Goodwillie is because I personally haven't got a clue what he's supposed to be doing and I'm not sure that he knows either.

Yes, he's been quite reasonable at holding the ball up but without a proper tactical plan in place, and particularly without Rooney up front (played together the last twice), we weren't getting the most from his strength, skill and speed, in my view.

McGinn has developed into a great provider and crosser of the ball from the right and can turn up inside the box when the play is coming down the left, being unlucky not to score last season, as stated above by others. He's a classic right half/right wing mix, with great pace and touch and consistent distribution, plus he can score given the chance. During his lean spell, I'm not sure he knew what he was supposed to be doing and there is no doubt in my mind that this led to some poor performances due to poor effort levels.

Logan on the other hand is a clear RB who has an attacking tendency, someone good defensively - MOTM in the final we won for me - and fast with good feet who can add weight going forward. What I love about him is that he tries 100% of the time, every game and it will be a shame to see him go, something I reckon we can expect this season given the cover we've taken in for him from Liverpool.
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Offline manc_don

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2015, 12:09:45 PM »
Quote
SHALEUM Logan today claimed the Dons will be just as fired up to beat struggling Hamilton as they were champions Celtic.

Table-topping Aberdeen were tonight set to host Accies knowing victory would move them five points clear of the Hoops.

Right-back Logan endeared himself further to the Red Army by tapping his Dons badge in the 2-1 win over Celtic.

The 27-year-old also cheekily blew a kiss to the Celtic fans after receiving stick during the top-of-the-table clash.

Logan was delighted to give the club’s fans something to cheer about with a win that fired the Dons to the top of the Premiership table.

However, he insisted the battle to overcome Hamilton, who suffered a heavy 4-1 loss at St Johnstone at the weekend, carries just as much significance as the Celtic showdown.

He said: “Celtic are seen as the top team in Scotland so it is always sweet to beat them, especially in front of a packed Pittodrie.

“It was a great day for our fans.

“However, the same three points are up for grabs against Hamilton which is just as important a game.

“If we can get another three points it will take us nearer to where we want to be at the end of the season.

“The manager does not take anything for granted and takes every game as it comes.

“We work hard to prepare for each game, no matter who it is.”

I was in stitches when he blew that kiss and thumped his badge

Offline manc_don

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2015, 11:21:33 AM »
Would hardly surprising given his families location.

Quote
ABERDEEN defender Shay Logan has revealed he is unsure if he will still be at the club next season.

The full-back has eight months left to run on his contract.

The 27-year-old, originally from Wythenshawe in Greater Manchester, admitted family reasons could spell the end of his time at Pittodrie as he has three children who all live down south.

Logan said: “At this moment in time I am not in a position to commit to anything.

“I want to have a talk with my family and my manager and see what is the best outcome for me.”

The former Manchester City full-back moved to the Granite City from Brentford in January 2014, initially on a six-month loan deal.

That deal would become permanent in the summer of 2014  following his departure from Griffin Park, with Logan penning a two-year deal with the Reds.

However, that contract is due to expire in around eight months  –  and the Englishman revealed he is unsure whether he will sign a new one.

Although his future plans remain unclear, the full-back has  reassured  the Red Army he will continue to give his all for the Dons, with Aberdeen facing a crunch league showdown away to Celtic this weekend.

Logan added: “At the moment I am under contract with Aberdeen for this season and I will give my all.

“Maybe in January we will see what happens on that front.

“But, to be honest, I  haven’t really thought about it, because that is not my goal at the minute.

“My goal is just to give 110% for Aberdeen for the time I am here and then we will see what happens.

“I am not putting any eggs in any basket and saying I want to go or I want to stay.

“I am not going to say that because at this moment in time I don’t know what I want personally or what is best for my family.

“At the end of the day it all comes down to family with me.”

Offline Tyrant

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #58 on: October 28, 2015, 01:41:30 PM »
He's not really been here for the last couple of months anyway. Keep performing poorly and he won't be missed. It's a pity because he's obviously a quality player when he's got his head on straight.

It's no secret he would rather be near his family but he should think about starting to earn that move.

Offline Reidzer 1314

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Re: Shay Logan
« Reply #59 on: October 28, 2015, 02:24:39 PM »
It will be sad to see him go but as you said Tyrant he has not really been here this season since his little one was born.