Author Topic: Victim fc v Dons 09/03  (Read 1618 times)

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Offline kiriakovisthenewstrachan

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2019, 01:12:49 PM »

The problem is the disparity in player quality and player mentality. Where jute rightly refers to the past, famously illustrated in that example from SAF's first days at AFC when Dom Sullivan and others felt like doing cartwheels on gaining a draw in Glasgow, the winning mindset manager ALWAYS wants to win and wants his players to want to win. I would go further and say that our fans should want to win every game too but as we all know, we have aspirations-disparity within our ranks too.

We defended brilliantly on Saturday and that's all. Much of that was down to a poor day at the office by the home team, who were surprisingly inept in unpicking our locks but let's not start doing cartwheels here. We are 16 points behind with a further 27 up for grabs. It's not working.

Your winning mindset thing is great in theory Rocket but surely over the course of a season resources are a much greater consideration.  McInnes is up against two teams in the league who spend millions on transfer fees and wages every season and with the disparity in finances he does pretty well to compete. 

All across Europe the teams with the most money are the ones competing for the league titles, you can see that by the Champions League where it is the same teams year after year that are in it.  It doesn't mean the rest of the teams don't want to win their respective leagues but a bit of realism has to kick in somewhere.  We are not competing in the 1980s any longer.  The disparity between the top clubs and the rest is massive.

A winning mindset can sometimes only take you so far.  Eventually you might just end up coming up against someone who is better than you. 

Does Andy Murray not have a winning mindset because he lost eight grand slam finals and if not, how do you explain the three that he won?  Was that just because his opponents had an off day?








Offline RicoS321

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2019, 01:44:58 PM »
Exactly, using 30-40 year old data as a comparison for today, when there's a whole rake of more pertinent data - worldwide - from the last 20 years is pointless. Saying "I can remember when going to either of the arse cheeks and playing for a draw was frowned upon" surely doesn't refer to anything in the 21st century (and at least back as far as 1995)? So why say it? Why are we judging McInnes against a different era? You could argue that it's Milne's fault, and I think there is a lot in that, but you can't then take McInnes out of the Milne era and hold him to a standard based on a previous generation and owner.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2019, 02:03:12 PM »
It is absolutely no surprise to me that the two biggest apologists on this forum for McInnes take exception to my words. You don't want to believe that McInnes is a shite manager. It would make you question why you spend so much time, money and energy supporting AFC. You don't even understand what Jute and I are saying.

It's actually a very good example you raised about Murray. He did well because he DOES HAVE the right mentality to succeed in sport. He got the max out of himself where he was clearly fourth best in his generation in terms of actual talent. That however is an individual sport and an endurance sport, a totally different kettle of fish to football.

Most people lose. Only a few win. I don't expect the majority to understand but the simple truth is that McInnes is NOT a winner, he has never been a winner and he will never become a winner. Unlike Andy Murray or Sir Alex Ferguson or even amateur and Highland league footballers I played with (who you've never heard of and who never made money at the game), McInnes isn't made of the right stuff. His ONLY priority is to get a wage and build a career. He can't inspire winners because he's not one himself. This is why we have numerous examples over the years of players performances going backwards at AFC under him. He tolerates mediocrity because loyalty and not upsetting the apple cart - his apple cart, the one where he doesn't get exposed - is his sole aim.
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Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2019, 02:08:24 PM »
1. Your winning mindset thing is great in theory...

2. A winning mindset can sometimes only take you so far...

1. It isn't a "theory". There are commonalities between EVERY successful individual or organisation, plus many variances too of course.

2. Yes, like Andy Murray and his obvious limitations but without a winning mentality, it's NEVER gong to happen.
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Offline Jute

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2019, 02:17:48 PM »
Exactly, using 30-40 year old data as a comparison for today, when there's a whole rake of more pertinent data - worldwide - from the last 20 years is pointless. Saying "I can remember when going to either of the arse cheeks and playing for a draw was frowned upon" surely doesn't refer to anything in the 21st century (and at least back as far as 1995)? So why say it? Why are we judging McInnes against a different era? You could argue that it's Milne's fault, and I think there is a lot in that, but you can't then take McInnes out of the Milne era and hold him to a standard based on a previous generation and owner.

I was not commenting on McInnes as a manager just the way we played and how 0-0 was cheered like a victory by some of our support. I dislike going to games where the team I support is playing to keep the score down. I cannot see the point in not trying to go at them on the front foot.

Worst part about Saturday is that Celtic were not even that good and if we had pressed them higher up the field I think we would have had a better chance of winning the game.

Kirakov I would say Rocket is right when he says Murray has won what he has because he has a winners mentality not because he took a safety first approach.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2019, 02:30:12 PM »
Kirakov I would say Rocket is right when he says Murray has won what he has because he has a winners mentality not because he took a safety first approach.

There is a great book called Overachievment (or Overachieving) by "Doc" Eliot, grandson of T S Eliot. Doc was sports psychology or something at Rice University Texas at the start of this century and his book is a brilliant synopsis of the mind in sport, based on heavy and detailed research as it was.

It takes imagination (and a winner mindset) to recognise his subject matter and therefore the vast majority won't understand. His is one of thousands of texts written on the subject of course, mostly invisible to most.
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Offline RicoS321

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2019, 04:52:08 PM »
It is absolutely no surprise to me that the two biggest apologists on this forum for McInnes take exception to my words. You don't want to believe that McInnes is a shite manager. It would make you question why you spend so much time, money and energy supporting AFC. You don't even understand what Jute and I are saying.

I understand entirely what you're saying, I just don't believe that you have the evidence or knowledge of McInnes to back it up - or you certainly haven't produced any. Instead, I concentrate on the things that we can know based on watching the team on the pitch when I regularly criticise McInnes. I regularly criticise his record in the transfer market, I regularly criticise his failure to provide a clear path for our youth players to their detriment and I regularly criticise his ability to change games through timely substitutions. All of which I can quantify based on what I see on the park. I can speculate on whether he's a loser or a winner, but it would be just that (throughout his career he's been identified as a winner - possibly by losers, I don't know - and he clearly believes himself that he is a winner). I also don't believe that being a winner would be enough to overcome the existing gap in ability between our players and the tims' players - I think it would need more than that.

Offline RicoS321

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2019, 05:10:07 PM »
Kirakov I would say Rocket is right when he says Murray has won what he has because he has a winners mentality not because he took a safety first approach.

Murray is a good example. For years he played safe by getting his first serves in, rather than getting them in and making them winners. He generally played to his strengths of returning the ball over playing winners. That quantifiable change (playing for winners and stronger first serves), as well as his overall fitness, made a big difference in the year he became world number one. Having Lendl (a winner) as his coach relentlessly pursuing these changes with him took him over the edge to top spot. The difference for me was that he was very close to the other 3 in terms of ability. I don't think Aberdeen, this season, are anywhere near it (the Tims) - I think we're significantly weaker than we were two seasons ago.

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I cannot see the point in not trying to go at them on the front foot.

Worst part about Saturday is that Celtic were not even that good

As I mentioned earlier, we had a weakness in the right side of our defence which meant that a quick ball over the top of a high line would be very simple to exploit. Tactics don't exist in a vacuum, they're deployed against an opposition who also have a huge desire to win, who will spot those weaknesses very quickly. In a straight head-to-head of who can score most goals I think they'd win every day of the week. Basically, I think that by playing on the front foot (a high press or whatever) we'd increase our likelihood of losing a goal(s) by more than we would increase our likelihood of scoring a goal. I also think that Celtic were not that good because we weakened them by playing to our strengths. Had we pushed them high up and lost a goal in the process, I think we'd have seen a more relaxed and ruthless Tim. I accept that you have more insight into the game though as I wasn't there so you'll know much better in that regard. All I'm saying is that I can see the point in the tactical choice, and that it is just a tactical choice.

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how 0-0 was cheered like a victory by some of our support

Aye, that's wanky as fuck like. I wasn't aware of that.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2019, 05:16:26 PM »
I understand entirely what you're saying, I just don't believe that you have the evidence or knowledge of McInnes to back it up - or you certainly haven't produced any.

No you do not understand what I'm saying, let alone "understand entirely".

If you did, you wouldn't ask for "evidence" because you would know that aspects of personality doesn't belong in a science or an empirical data set where "proof" can be delivered in the same way.

Either you recognise what the man is, his agenda, his aspirations, his honesty, his potential or you don't.

Either you have experience of managing men successfully, or managing them unsuccessfully and then learning from that and managing successfully thereafter, or you haven't.

Either you have studied aspects of the mind in high performance in management and/or sport, or you haven't. 

We can however look at the results, the effects of the personality, as indeed we should. In EVERY year of his tenure, I see the same bullshitting small man failing to get anywhere close to winning the league and bottle collapsing every big game. You don't want to believe that I may be right and between you and kitns, you make excuses that don't stack up.
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Offline RicoS321

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2019, 05:34:57 PM »
 :-[
No you do not understand what I'm saying, let alone "understand entirely".

If you did, you wouldn't ask for "evidence" because you would know that aspects of personality doesn't belong in a science or an empirical data set where "proof" can be delivered in the same way.

Either you recognise what the man is, his agenda, his aspirations, his honesty, his potential or you don't.

Either you have experience of managing men successfully, or managing them unsuccessfully and then learning from that and managing successfully thereafter, or you haven't.

Either you have studied aspects of the mind in high performance in management and/or sport, or you haven't. 

We can however look at the results, the effects of the personality, as indeed we should. In EVERY year of his tenure, I see the same bullshitting small man failing to get anywhere close to winning the league and bottle collapsing every big game. You don't want to believe that I may be right and between you and kitns, you make excuses that don't stack up.

I understand entirely what you're saying. I also know that you need more than placating interviews on the TV to judge a man's personality. I'm also not arguing that McInnes is a winner, I'm arguing that you or I are not best placed to know (or that you haven't evidenced your additional knowledge that allows you to make the decision). Anyone suggesting they have a real insight into a man's character based on his interviews is a snake oil salesman. I appreciate that you probably have more information than that, but you haven't been forthcoming with it.

I've provided you with reasons for us not winning the league - far more plausible than just being a winner - you just choose to ignore them. I've been very critical of McInnes on this forum because of them. Where you see bottle collapsing, I see a significantly better and more clinical side beating us because we didn't do everything 100% correctly on the day (most of the time I blame McInnes) to ensure that we win. I also recognise that we've won a shite load of big games under McInnes where we've gone in thinking that we'd lose; they just don't happen to have been against the Tims (because a big game isn't just playing the Tims, there have been plenty of unexpected league and cup victories). Finally, I do recognise that McInnes' tactical approach against the Tims has been too negative and have mentioned, and criticised him for, it on hunners of occasions. I only comment on his tactical side because I don't have any visibility of what he's like behind the scenes. Anecdotally, I've heard that he may actually be quite good in instilling belief in his players at times, but I wouldn't take what a person says to the press as evidence of what happens behind the scenes at a fitba club.

Offline CtS

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2019, 06:38:03 PM »
If Derek McInnes got the Celtic managers job this summer, he’d win the league next season. Absolutely guaranteed.

That’s got fuck all to do with winners mentality, and everything to do with resources.
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Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2019, 06:49:52 PM »
I understand entirely what you're saying. I also know that you need more than placating interviews on the TV to judge a man's personality. I'm also not arguing that McInnes is a winner, I'm arguing that you or I are not best placed to know (or that you haven't evidenced your additional knowledge that allows you to make the decision). Anyone suggesting they have a real insight into a man's character based on his interviews is a snake oil salesman. I appreciate that you probably have more information than that, but you haven't been forthcoming with it.

No you don't. Lawrence Gatland in his interview on North Tonight said "you can't coach experience". When you are older and wiser, you won't say that we "meed more" (than interviews on TV) to "judge a man's personality".

The truth is that we judge people on immediate impressions and more often than not, our initial impressions are true. This is a function of instinct, another aspect of the human (and animal) condition that gets overlooked by atheists for example and people who demand empirical proof all the time, even for subjects where it can't be offered.

We have seen LOADS of interviews by McInnes over the years. Did you see his interview tonight? Did you BELIEVE him? Did you think he BELIEVED that we would "get on the coach with a semi-final to look forward to"? Did you notice how he brushed his forehead? Did you hear the tone of his delivery? Did you see the rabbit-in-the-headlight eyes in his skull?

Either you can see and understand body language, tone delivery and word construction and what they mean or you can't. Most don't even have the imagination to acknowledge let alone understand this subject.

Your attempted insult about "snake oil salesman" is noted but it again highlights your lack of experience because it most certainly is possible to get an insight into a man's character from what they say and how they say it, particularly when we see the same aspects being trotted out year after year after year.

I've provided you with reasons for us not winning the league - far more plausible than just being a winner - you just choose to ignore them.

That's just a fucking lie and also a further insult.

Only a fool would fail to acknowledge that there is a financial disparity between AFC and Celtic. On the contrary, I HAVE recognised this and have never denied it (and how could anyone?). You are twisting the record. It was YOU who failed to acknowledge that the remarkable achievement of Leicester two seasons ago was achieved despite a massive financial disadvantage (against many teams, not just one) and that it happened because of many other reasons, the prevailing culture being the most influential, a culture where they saw the possibility and believed that it could be done, something you've already admitted (wrongly) AFC can't do because boo hoo hoo, they've got more money than us.

And fuck off with "there have been plenty of unexpected league and cup victories". I only remember one. Rangers in the semi-final was phenomenal, the best bounce I've had as an AFC fan since the SC final in 1990 but it means fuck all if we can't back it up. Even in his interview tonight McInnes said that it was a "narrow" defeat in the final? Was it fuck. We were there. We never had a chance of any note for 90 minutes. We don't win games if we can't score goals.

This was yet another piece of evidence (since you're desperate for some) that McInnes is a bullshitting midget charlatan loser cunt who talks himself up to a better game than he can deliver. Nobody remembers losers. Any "unexpected victories" are meaningless if we don't win anything and the fact that they are unexpected shows how low we have sunk. Another phrase he uses which proves his mindset is "getting to a final", exactly what Calderclown used to say. SAF and indeed any winner doesn't even think of getting to finals. The whole point is to win the fucking thing, or at least that's my point, it's certainly not yours as we have a major aspirations-disparity, a "day out" being your whole objective.
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Offline RicoS321

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2019, 10:32:41 PM »
No you don't. Lawrence Gatland in his interview on North Tonight said "you can't coach experience". When you are older and wiser, you won't say that we "meed more" (than interviews on TV) to "judge a man's personality".

Wiseness isn't a function of age, that's just an arrogant statement by an older person. Experience, definitely, but the phrase "wise beyond their years" exists for a reason.

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The truth is that we judge people on immediate impressions and more often than not, our initial impressions are true. This is a function of instinct, another aspect of the human (and animal) condition that gets overlooked by atheists for example and people who demand empirical proof all the time, even for subjects where it can't be offered.

Can you quantify "more often than not"?

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We have seen LOADS of interviews by McInnes over the years. Did you see his interview tonight? Did you BELIEVE him? Did you think he BELIEVED that we would "get on the coach with a semi-final to look forward to"? Did you notice how he brushed his forehead? Did you hear the tone of his delivery? Did you see the rabbit-in-the-headlight eyes in his skull?

Either you can see and understand body language, tone delivery and word construction and what they mean or you can't. Most don't even have the imagination to acknowledge let alone understand this subject.

You're missing the point. I'm not here to argue that McInnes is a winner, I'm arguing the extent to which being a winner makes any difference in the overall scheme of things in a season and suggesting that it has far less impact than good transfer dealings, etc etc. You would have made exactly the same point about McInnes' interview prior to the hun semi final too, most definitely, but we won.

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Your attempted insult about "snake oil salesman" is noted but it again highlights your lack of experience because it most certainly is possible to get an insight into a man's character from what they say and how they say it, particularly when we see the same aspects being trotted out year after year after year.

That's just a fucking lie and also a further insult.

Grow up, nobody is insulting anyone. You and I both know that you're not the type to take insult in an online debate.

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Only a fool would fail to acknowledge that there is a financial disparity between AFC and Celtic. On the contrary, I HAVE recognised this and have never denied it (and how could anyone?). You are twisting the record. It was YOU who failed to acknowledge that the remarkable achievement of Leicester two seasons ago was achieved despite a massive financial disadvantage (against many teams, not just one) and that it happened because of many other reasons, the prevailing culture being the most influential, a culture where they saw the possibility and believed that it could be done, something you've already admitted (wrongly) AFC can't do because boo hoo hoo, they've got more money than us.

No I didn't. I simply said that it was the only example of its kind anywhere this century and they haven't repeated those conditions since, which suggests it was as much a case of everything going right at the right time. I also suggested that the dons winning the league would have been a bigger achievement and that you would definitely have accused Ranieri of not being a winner prior to being appointed Leicester manager.

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And fuck off with "there have been plenty of unexpected league and cup victories". I only remember one. Rangers in the semi-final was phenomenal, the best bounce I've had as an AFC fan since the SC final in 1990 but it means fuck all if we can't back it up. Even in his interview tonight McInnes said that it was a "narrow" defeat in the final? Was it fuck. We were there. We never had a chance of any note for 90 minutes. We don't win games if we can't score goals.

This was yet another piece of evidence (since you're desperate for some) that McInnes is a bullshitting midget charlatan loser cunt who talks himself up to a better game than he can deliver. Nobody remembers losers. Any "unexpected victories" are meaningless if we don't win anything and the fact that they are unexpected shows how low we have sunk. Another phrase he uses which proves his mindset is "getting to a final", exactly what Calderclown used to say. SAF and indeed any winner doesn't even think of getting to finals. The whole point is to win the fucking thing, or at least that's my point, it's certainly not yours as we have a major aspirations-disparity, a "day out" being your whole objective.

Don't tell me what my objective is. I'll have to take your word for it on McInnes talking about getting to a final (I do, I'm not suggesting your lying). I've heard him on numerous occasions state that, but it's always been caveated with "but it's always been my desire to bring silverware back to Pittodrie/fans deserve it etc" (pharaphrasing, obviously). I heard him say that on so many occasions I can't take it particularly seriously, nor do I think it has any bearing as to what he says behind closed doors or to the team. Obviously, prior to a game I'd rather he said as little as possible.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2019, 11:06:57 PM »
Wiseness isn't a function of age, that's just an arrogant statement by an older person. Experience, definitely, but the phrase "wise beyond their years" exists for a reason.

Can you quantify "more often than not"?

These are diversionary and unnecessary. Your use of "arrogant" is also noted and once again, it fails to upset me pr otherwise get me to lose my cool, for reasons that will become clear. All I said was "older and wiser". You pick up on that to go off on a tangent? Grow up. And you may think you're being clever by asking me to "quantify" but it's too obvious to warrant further explanation.


You're missing the point.

Now we have your proof that what you're doing is wrong. My retort was in response to you saying that we can't judge a man based on what he says and how he says it. That's all.


I'm not here to argue that McInnes is a winner, I'm arguing the extent to which being a winner makes any difference in the overall scheme of things in a season and suggesting that it has far less impact than good transfer dealings, etc etc. You would have made exactly the same point about McInnes' interview prior to the hun semi final too, most definitely, but we won.

Your words that I've highlighted prove that you don't understand what I've been saying. Of course transfer dealings are very important "in the overall scheme of things in a season" but I am talking about McInnes the man and why his personality defects are fatal if the objective is to be the best that we can be. I also did NOT say anything about McInnes' interview before the huns semi, as I never saw or heard it, downing many pints as I was doing in the closest bar to Hampden.

Actually, I didn't even talk about my well-known issues with our manager and our chairman. I was talking about your diatribe about tactics, when you spelled out in too many words the fucking obvious, like you like to do. I referenced what Souness was saying yesterday and it was only when your other McInnes apologist, your fellow-denier of AFC reality jumped in by taking one line from my post to leap to McInnes' defence that you then backed him up.


Grow up, nobody is insulting anyone. You and I both know that you're not the type to take insult in an online debate.

Like I give a fuck about the many insults I face in "an online debate". It's true though, your "snake oil salesman" like your "arrogant" and like your suggestion that I was so foolish that I ignored the financial reality between us and Celtic are attempts to rile your opponent... and yet, we're not even disagreeing on anything other than how we can judge a man, you having started with a search for "evidence" to justify my having such a position.


No I didn't. I simply said that it was the only example of its kind anywhere this century and they haven't repeated those conditions since, which suggests it was as much a case of everything going right at the right time. I also suggested that the dons winning the league would have been a bigger achievement and that you would definitely have accused Ranieri of not being a winner prior to being appointed Leicester manager.

I accept that you didn't deny Leicester's achievement. Maybe I was twisting the record like you had done but I do not accept that AFC beating Celtic would have been bigger achievement. How the fuck do you know what I would have said about Ranieri? He had a solid record in the game and I never cast any opinion about him at that time.


Don't tell me what my objective is. I'll have to take your word for it on McInnes talking about getting to a final (I do, I'm not suggesting your lying). I've heard him on numerous occasions state that, but it's always been caveated with "but it's always been my desire to bring silverware back to Pittodrie/fans deserve it etc" (pharaphrasing, obviously). I heard him say that on so many occasions I can't take it particularly seriously, nor do I think it has any bearing as to what he says behind closed doors or to the team. Obviously, prior to a game I'd rather he said as little as possible.

I apologise if I misread your words but I'm pretty certain that you DID say that the "day-out" occasion of the thing was an important factor for you.

Even if he did caveat it, you once again miss the whole point, not that I've heard him speak about silverware as often as you have. He DOES speak about getting to finals and this of itself reveals his true ambition, which is to keep on taking a wage.

We may or may not disagree on McInnes the man but we clearly have life experiences that differ which as far as I can see, is leading us to some misunderstandings on this issue and on this thread.
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Offline RicoS321

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2019, 11:15:42 PM »
I apologise if I misread your words but I'm pretty certain that you DID say that the "day-out" occasion of the thing was an important factor for you.

It's been good as always, but you've taken it too far with that. I have never said that the "day-out" was an important factor! Unless I was posting whilst on drugs. Drugs that turned me into a queer.

 

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2019, 11:17:13 PM »
You don't take drugs and have never done so!

Doesn't make you a bad person.

Edit: there's another example of how we can determine aspects of personality from the words we use and how we put them together, this time from the written word.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 11:20:08 PM by rocket_scientist »
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Offline manc_don

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2019, 09:36:41 AM »
Would have thought Manc would have had this started by now but must be to busy practicing the huddle. No idea how we line up for this but would be tempted to go with forwards who will play in quarter final so as they get game time together. Can always bring Cosgrove off the bench if we have to. Hate going to this shithole and find their fans just as vile a bunch of bigots as the blue arse cheeks. According to club the away allocation has sold out for this which is good going for a tie we usually lose.

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Ha, sorry, had bigger things to be doing! Will be back in action by the weekend 👍

Offline Jute

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2019, 11:36:29 AM »
Ha, sorry, had bigger things to be doing! Will be back in action by the weekend 👍

Don’t give us the wedding pish. The wife will have arranged that all anyway. All you have to do is turn up sober.

Offline Tyrant

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2019, 04:00:31 PM »
I was not commenting on McInnes as a manager just the way we played and how 0-0 was cheered like a victory by some of our support. I dislike going to games where the team I support is playing to keep the score down. I cannot see the point in not trying to go at them on the front foot.

Worst part about Saturday is that Celtic were not even that good and if we had pressed them higher up the field I think we would have had a better chance of winning the game.

Kirakov I would say Rocket is right when he says Murray has won what he has because he has a winners mentality not because he took a safety first approach.

Agreed Jute. I made a sharp exit from the stands at full time on Saturday. Not that I wouldn't have taken a draw before the game because I probably would. The first half was shite. The second half slightly better but I didn't feel comfortable happy clapping the team off the park after a famous 0-0 at the Giro Dome. Not the worst result in the world by any means but we could have had more.

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Re: Victim fc v Dons 09/03
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2019, 09:17:00 PM »
There's optimism, realism and just down right foolishness.
A few years back, Alex Ferguson asked Roy Keane what his exceptions were for the world cup.  He said to win it.  Ferguson laughed at him in disbelief.
At the time, an optimistic expectation would have been Ireland getting to the last 16.  A realistic expectation would have been them getting out of the group.  A foolish expectation was the nonsense that Roy Keane answered with.