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Scottish Cup Semi-Final - Aberdeen v Celtic

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What is success?


Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan

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Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan

Heard the journos on Sky the other day discussing how Pochettino and Klopp had been great successes at Spurs and Liverpool although none had won anything and that maybe we need to redefine what success actually is.

 

Interested to hear what people on here think success is for AFC given the level of finance available compared to other teams in Scotland.

 

In my thirties and not having experienced the glory days, the last couple of years have been great having a team that you actually expect to win most weeks instead of just hoping.  Having said that I know some posters on here think the current manager is not that great and even complain that the league cup win was poor.

 

So what is success.........would you be happy beating the old firm eights times a season and finishing sixth in the league, is it better to win a cup or is third or fourth place in the league success based on our financial clout and average attendances?

 

Discuss. 

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When you have seen us lift the league 3 times in 5 years, lift a European trophy ( 2 in fact) and win numerous cups along the way then I guess guys of my vintage were spoilt.

 

With our finances as they are at present we should expect to win a cup every 3 years and finish no lower than 4th in the league with 2nd place a reasonable expectation at least once every 3 years assuming sevco neither go bust nor get a whacking great cash injection in the interim.

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Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan

we should expect to win a cup every 3 years and finish no lower than 4th in the league

 

Those are pretty high expectations Ten Caat, to expect six trophies in eighteen years. 

 

Since the year 2000 we have won one cup.

 

In the same period, of the teams (broadly) of a similar size, Hearts have won two cups which involved chucking a load of money at it, Hibs have won two and Dundee Utd one trophy.  All three of those have also been relegated of course.

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between 1996 and 2013 we were utter pap. Now Wiggy gets a lot of stick on here and it is mostly deserved but to his credit he realised our spending overall was unsustainable by the late 90s ( and wasnt even producing moderate success) so he chose to restructure the club onto a financially stable footing. Of course as a consequence we were absolutely shyte for well over a decade but he certainly prevented us running the risk of going the way oldco or Fartz did.

 

I dont think under present circumstances a trophy every 3rd year is too much of an expectation. Sure Celtic have way more resources than us but they are not invincible and their central defence is poor. Sevco are improving slowly and have a massive squad but they always seem to be on the verge of a crisis with financial disaster a constant threat.

 

Fartz and Hibs, whilst certainly improving, probably aren't at the level of winning a cup without getting a bizarrely easy draw ( as Hibs did a couple of years back)........

 

Killie, Motherwell and St Johnstone might win a cup every 25 years or so. Everyone else are now also rans.

 

So yes I think it is ( under present circumstances) to now say that winning either of the cups once every 3 years is indeed a reasonable expectation

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Success to me is an era of being the best side in your competitions, though thats probably been concluded because I was brought up in the glory days.

  But,if youve been brought up anytime after the WM era when Celtic and Rangers have been mostly uncatchable,success probably now means a time when we got the most out of the resources at our disposal compared to other recent eras,and this era is as close as weve got to that in the last 20 years,(though we can argue we could get more out of what weve got.)

    Personally i'm not unhappy with the comparatively successful era we're in,am enjoying going to Pittodrie,and the standard of player we're watching.Think were at a stage where one or 2 signings soon,could be enough to boost the confidence/step us up a level,or, where our rivals progress quicker than our ability to progress

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Been thinking about this over the past few days.  A tough one.  I still deem success as silverware and in that respect, we've not done very well.  However, given where we were pre- this era, it's hard to argue that it has been relatively successful.  We perform on a far more consistent basis, get to finals, play in Europe (sort of).  Could we do better? Most certainly.  We've won one trophy but we're definitely due another.

 

I suppose I should be grateful that I wasn't really aware of the dons during those early years of my life  :-\

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It’s a good question. As someone who grew up in the fergie era success to me should be trophies. I think it’s fair to say that without Rangers in the league we were paying the second highest wage, correct? And with Rangers in the league the third highest? If that’s the case then top 3 each year should be expected, Europe, and I’d say a trophy every 3 years isn’t unfair to expect. But is that success or what is expected???

 

A successful season to me is top 2 and a cup final. If the final is against anyone other than the old firm then that’s a cup final win. I’d still expect to beat the current Rangers but DMs tactics fuck that up.

 

Success in Europe is a tough one given the flawed system of minimal summer break, the transfer window, and Europe being preseason. Any success or advancement in Europe is a bonus in my eyes.

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Success is winning things.

 

Anything else is failure.

 

I suppose people have different ideas of which level of failure is acceptable.

 

That'll keep the powers that be happy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's important not to have a sense of entitlement.

You can't win them all.

But to set out with the intention of failure is a mistake.

 

 

 

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between 1996 and 2013 we were utter pap. Now Wiggy gets a lot of stick on here and it is mostly deserved but to his credit he realised our spending overall was unsustainable by the late 90s ( and wasnt even producing moderate success) so he chose to restructure the club onto a financially stable footing. Of course as a consequence we were absolutely shyte for well over a decade but he certainly prevented us running the risk of going the way oldco or Fartz did.

 

I dont think under present circumstances a trophy every 3rd year is too much of an expectation. Sure Celtic have way more resources than us but they are not invincible and their central defence is poor. Sevco are improving slowly and have a massive squad but they always seem to be on the verge of a crisis with financial disaster a constant threat.

 

Fartz and Hibs, whilst certainly improving, probably aren't at the level of winning a cup without getting a bizarrely easy draw ( as Hibs did a couple of years back)........

 

Killie, Motherwell and St Johnstone might win a cup every 25 years or so. Everyone else are now also rans.

 

So yes I think it is ( under present circumstances) to now say that winning either of the cups once every 3 years is indeed a reasonable expectation

 

Can’t really disagree with that.

 

For the amount of dosh we are spending and where we are in the league they go hand in hand. It’s not much to expect a few trophy’s when in a one off cup game we could cuff anyone with our squad – mentality issues aside.

 

We’re also not many players off of a title challenge. But that is a whole separate discussion.

 

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Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan

A different topic, but maybe following your team is not ALL about success, Mourinho being the classic example.  He's been at Man Utd for a season and a half, won two trophies but they are still not totally happy with him.

 

 

 

 

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Just had a text conversation on that very subject. This was what my mate wrote - Now they have bubbly Jose saying £300m budget not enough before he signs another bubbly cunt Sanchez.

 

Man U are so off the pace for winning the EPL, for a second year under him, of course they can't be happy. Winning is success and a massive club with a massive budget under a massively expensive manager with a massive ego can't win the league. Simples.

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In fact we can measure how unsuccessful Jose has been at MU.

 

24 points behind the winner last season.

 

16 points behind this season with 11 games to go.

 

With 33 points available, the only question remaining is how big the winning margin is going to be.

 

It is already fact (not mathematically yet of course) that MU have failed to succeed in the EPL.

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Further, Aberdeen have a better chance than MU of winning the league.

 

We are therefore closer to success than Jose is.

 

Being 8 points behind Celtic means we are twice as likely to succeed than them.

 

But we won't. It's not even in our plan and aspirations.

 

A team as big as MU having the league gone by Xmas is obvious failure.

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I have to agree with DD and Rocket "success" is WINNING something!

 

Brought up on the end of the Turnbull era (so I've seen poor, near-relegation, huge success, decline, utter pap and improvement in my time) but for Aberdeen FC it's only success if we actually fucking win something.

 

I go into every season expecting us to win at least one trophy (now, for many years that was probably totally unrealistic), but I always have and I always will!

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Ultimate success?  For a club team that would be domestic double and the EC, everyone else is a loser in some way.  Relative success?  Finishing above your wage bill rating , i.e. punching above your weight, combined with making enough to get better. Ambition/expectation?  For us, consistent top of the table challenge and a trophy every few seasons.

Most of my time since Tommy Pearson has not been relatively successful or met my ambition/expectation! Fitba, wtf.

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I have to agree with DD and Rocket "success" is WINNING something!

 

 

 

Is the correct response.

 

However as long as there are signs of progress like finishing with more points than the season before, improving the league position or progressing a round further in Europe then I think that is acceptable as if you keep moving forward the trophies will come.

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the trophies wont just come, we have had huge opportunities since rangers imploded to win stuff in last 10 years , we should have won 2-3 more cups and in my opinion and i lay this at the board and mcinnes we should have won the league in delias final season

 

as of mid march we were one point behind celtic, we then completely capitulated picking up 6 points out of 27 , thats not success

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Interesting angle, Jute, about what might be acceptable. I think most of us agree what "success" is.

 

Ernie makes a good point about relative success and punching above our wage bill. However and whilst it's impossible to disagree vehemently with his sentiment, I would expect a good manager to use the higher wages of the opposition as a motivating factor. I also believe that a team can beat another even where they get paid 50% less or the other team gets double. It's when the wages disparity gets ridiculous that the argument is over. I don't think PSG or Barcelona would struggle to pick up maximum points in a whole season against the likes of St Johnstone, Hamilton and Ross County for example.

 

In Scotland however, I think Aberdeen should always set out to try and win the league. It's the fact that we haven't had that as the plan and the goal and have been paying wages to people who do not have this mentality that irks the most. Christ some don't even think we should try to win the league. As for McInnes saying repeatedly over the years "getting to a final", that's loser-speak.

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Interesting angle, Jute, about what might be acceptable. I think most of us agree what "success" is.

 

Ernie makes a good point about relative success and punching above our wage bill. However and whilst it's impossible to disagree vehemently with his sentiment, I would expect a good manager to use the higher wages of the opposition as a motivating factor. I also believe that a team can beat another even where they get paid 50% less or the other team gets double. It's when the wages disparity gets ridiculous that the argument is over. I don't think PSG or Barcelona would struggle to pick up maximum points in a whole season against the likes of St Johnstone, Hamilton and Ross County for example.

 

In Scotland however, I think Aberdeen should always set out to try and win the league. It's the fact that we haven't had that as the plan and the goal and have been paying wages to people who do not have this mentality that irks the most. Christ some don't even think we should try to win the league. As for McInnes saying repeatedly over the years "getting to a final", that's loser-speak.

 

Couple of points. First, McInnes has been very open - to his credit - about his desire to win a cup and his disappointment at not doing so and his belief that we should be. That is something that previous managers would have shied away from stating publicly. His comments about "getting to a final" are more along the lines of "you've got to be in it to win it" and that the more we get there the greater the chance we have of winning. My taking of his interviews on the subject has always been that his target has always been to win it, but that our previous final appearances - in hindsight - can be used as a positive stepping stone, as the players get more and more used to/experience of the occasion. He seems comfortable that we're getting closer and closer to winning another and that we will. Purely in terms of odds we are increasing our chances by getting to finals. I don't remember him ever stating a target of getting to a final rather than a target of winning a cup however, but I could be wrong.

 

In terms of wages, there's a direct correlation. This boy Szymanski covered it really well in England a few years back before the influx of the really really big money in the latest deals. Basically pointing out that 90% of yer league position's merit can be attributed to wages, with 10% being the manager's additional input. Without doubt rangers wages v our wages are way beyond what we should consider within the boundaries of a manager realistically overturning. It should be unrealistic.

 

http://www.open.edu/openlearn/money-management/management/business-studies/stefan-szymanski-on-the-business-football

 

Success for me would be winning the cup and league. Relative success would be finishing second or winning the cup. Expectation should be a final and third place (given that the odds of facing a team with a higher budget are significantly low).

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I think it's possible to claim an element of success even in the absence of trophies, depending on the situation.

 

I don't think we're there yet. Success for us would involve at least going into matches against Celtic (and probably Rangers too) expecting to win.

 

If we were to go toe to toe with Celtic, obtain 90 points and miss out on the title on goal difference, that would be a fair claim for success for us.

 

The league being over before the split, and relying on luck and Celtic not turning up to get at least a point from them is not really success, we're just the best of the unsuccessful teams.

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In Scotland however, I think Aberdeen should always set out to try and win the league. It's the fact that we haven't had that as the plan and the goal and have been paying wages to people who do not have this mentality that irks the most. Christ some don't even think we should try to win the league. As for McInnes saying repeatedly over the years "getting to a final", that's loser-speak.

 

Supposedly, prior to the 2002 World Cup, Mick McCarthy asked his Ireland squad where they thought they'd get to in the tournament.  He asked if anyone in the room thought they could win it. Roy Keane put his hand up straight away, and there were a few laughs etc and McCarthy looked at him as if he was off his head.  "What game is it you're all expecting to fucking lose then?" was Keane's response.

 

Spot on. Until/If it becomes impossible for us to win the league, that should always be the aim.

 

 

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Guest kiriakovisthenewstrachan

Public perception is vital for a manager/club. It is so easy for a manager to be labelled a joke figure in the media which in the end can be his undoing.

 

I remember a Scotland manager (Levein I think) say we were capable of beating all teams in our group just after a qualifying draw had been made. The Sun headline next day was 'We can win every game'.

 

Therefore the manager has to be careful of creating unnecessary expectation in the public domain for risk of being hung out to dry. For that reason McInnes is right to say we are aiming for second. I would love to be a fly on the wall in the dressing room to hear what he really thinks though.

 

I too greatly admired Roy Keane's self belief yet he was never stupid enough to make wild predictions in public.

 

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