DT Politics Thread

[Mason89]

19 minutes ago, TheDonbytheDee said:

Social Media has to take a large share of the blame for the rise of the right wing nut jobs.

Without Facebook there wouldn’t be a Reform Ltd. 
 

It’s quite funny watching boomers (bless their wee cotton socks) replying in huge numbers to bots on local newspaper sites 

Guys, if it’s got a dog picture, 2 pals and hates Muslims, it’s probably not human 

[DonUnder]

31 minutes ago, Mason89 said:

Without Facebook there wouldn’t be a Reform Ltd. 
 

It’s quite funny watching boomers (bless their wee cotton socks) replying in huge numbers to bots on local newspaper sites 

Guys, if it’s got a dog picture, 2 pals and hates Muslims, it’s probably not human 

You may be onto something! Boomers don't really understand the internet so when right wing (Gen X) influencers post something they may not have the skill set to decipher it?

[Mason89]

22 minutes ago, DonUnder said:

You may be onto something! Boomers don't really understand the internet so when right wing (Gen X) influencers post something they may not have the skill set to decipher it?

Hence the Alba Party 

It’s tried and tested system around the world though. Guns, trans, ferries, immigrants, camper vans - take a wedge issue and unleash the bots. Guaranteed Dave down the pub is going to fall for it. 
 

The biggest threat western democracies face right now is nostalgic cunts with Facebook accounts 

[RicoS321]

3 hours ago, TheDonbytheDee said:

Id say a reasonably educated person would vote, whilst folk from poorer backgrounds tend not to bother.

I don't bother. You could be right. That's not because of a lack of education, it's because of a lack of a particular type of education. Representative democracy is an abstract system that has been concocted to exclude those uneducated in its ways. Any educated person making the statement of yours I quote would recognise that's an example of a systemic problem. If poor people are excluded, then representative democracy is illegitimate (it is, for more reasons than that). It's just another example of people thinking that they've gained something when in reality they haven't - in this case, poor people being given the right to vote. Like making slavery illegal after you've built the system in which they'll remain indentured. Giving poor people the vote after you've designed a system that ensures that voting doesn't effect power. The best part about it is that you have an army of professional middle class people (like me and you) educated in the ways of the system that act as gatekeepers, scornful of those who don't, or can't, participate. After all, it can't be us that's the issue.

[Mason89]

2 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

I don't bother. You could be right. That's not because of a lack of education, it's because of a lack of a particular type of education. Representative democracy is an abstract system that has been concocted to exclude those uneducated in its ways. Any educated person making the statement of yours I quote would recognise that's an example of a systemic problem. If poor people are excluded, then representative democracy is illegitimate (it is, for more reasons than that). It's just another example of people thinking that they've gained something when in reality they haven't - in this case, poor people being given the right to vote. Like making slavery illegal after you've built the system in which they'll remain indentured. Giving poor people the vote after you've designed a system that ensures that voting doesn't effect power. The best part about it is that you have an army of professional middle class people (like me and you) educated in the ways of the system that act as gatekeepers, scornful of those who don't, or can't, participate. After all, it can't be us that's the issue.

Brexit? 

[RicoS321]

2 hours ago, Mason89 said:

The biggest threat western democracies face right now is nostalgic cunts with Facebook accounts

No it isn't. The biggest threat they face is that their system based on growth can't cope when the materials that the growth is based on are declining across the board. The nostalgic cunts are exactly what Western democracies need and want to distract from that. The mistake you're making here is that you seem to be suggesting that Western democracies have ever belonged to the people within them, rather than the people who control them. Western democracies don't really give much of a fuck what you or I think, and if it helps to algorithm the fuck out of a few 60+ year olds, then that's what will be done.

[RicoS321]

3 minutes ago, Mason89 said:

Brexit? 

In what way has Brexit affected power?

[Mason89]

1 minute ago, RicoS321 said:

In what way has Brexit affected power?

Brexit was never meant to be voted through. Trumps first election as well. 
Both had the same shady backing of course but no way did the political establishment want either. Spuds with votes still hold power 

[Mason89]

5 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

No it isn't. The biggest threat they face is that their system based on growth can't cope when the materials that the growth is based on are declining across the board. The nostalgic cunts are exactly what Western democracies need and want to distract from that. The mistake you're making here is that you seem to be suggesting that Western democracies have ever belonged to the people within them, rather than the people who control them. Western democracies don't really give much of a fuck what you or I think, and if it helps to algorithm the fuck out of a few 60+ year olds, then that's what will be done.

I think you’re wildly wrong but that’s ok 

[Don Julio]

I’m interested in why spuds with votes don’t affect power. Surely the birth of the Labour Party in the UK ushered in real change in terms of welfare state, NHS, etc?

Brexit is an anomaly as it was a plebiscite as opposed to representative democracy.

[Ajja]

5 hours ago, RicoS321 said:

To take the US example, why would voting for the democrat party be voting in a collective, humanitarian way?

Similarly in the UK, what are we talking here? Does greater education = further and further left? Or does it peak, and fall? Is there a particular level of education that is perfect? If so, which political party does it align with? 

I've often heard the green party described as "economically illiterate" for example. Is that because of a lack of education, or is it because their greater education allows them to see a fundamental flaw in economics that, say, a labour voter misses?

Similarly, on immigration. Is a reform voter concerned about the extrapolation of migration trends poorly educated, or are they spotting a trend in total fertility rate that suggests that immigration will be the only way to achieve economic growth in future, and they have "genuine concerns"? 

Haha. That’s a lot of questions Rico, who knew a throw away comment/judgement could illicit so much need for factual clarification. Let’s just confirm that I was living in the grey when I used the term uneducated and was expressing a point of view as opposed to stating facts. I don’t have the clarification you are looking for but would be interested in your perspective rather than lots of questions. Not having a go, just can’t be bothered picking through the details. Do you disagree there is a correlation or just feels that it’s an over simplification?

[RicoS321]

58 minutes ago, Don Julio said:

I’m interested in why spuds with votes don’t affect power. Surely the birth of the Labour Party in the UK ushered in real change in terms of welfare state, NHS, etc?

I would argue that it was that inconvenient world war thing that ushered in those real changes. Of course, those conditions may rear their head again soon! It's certainly not the norm for representative democracy. More importantly though, those changes didn't effect power as held in the system itself, which quickly reverted to the norm. Replicated across the western world.

No representative democracy was actually able to discuss the very real rules of the system. Introduction of fiat currency, decide on whether growth should be a metric, what property is, who decides who gets rights, what rights even are, who gets to enforce them using which form of violence, what a nation is and why, where borders are and so on. We've created a game for you with these predefined rules, but it's okay, you get to vote on a few options for change within those rules. But never the system itself. The NHS was well within the boundaries of a system that required healthy labour at a time of huge population and available energy expansion. 

[Don Julio]

I get you. Although power and control are pretty universal in the animal kingdom and so no system is ever born in a vacuum. 
 

There are attempts to change some of that. Believe it or not HM Treasury is committed to well-being as an alternative metric to GDP. I’m not holding my breath though.

[RicoS321]

24 minutes ago, Ajja said:

Haha. That’s a lot of questions Rico, who knew a throw away comment/judgement could illicit so much need for factual clarification. Let’s just confirm that I was living in the grey when I used the term uneducated and was expressing a point of view as opposed to stating facts. I don’t have the clarification you are looking for but would be interested in your perspective rather than lots of questions. Not having a go, just can’t be bothered picking through the details. Do you disagree there is a correlation or just feels that it’s an over simplification?

It's an oversimplification. Education is metered by the system. If I'm educated today, I'm educated in the workings of the system that I'm voting in, so of course I'm more likely to vote. Being educated in an abstract system is just a game. I'm not educated in how to care for a seriously ill relative when working three jobs for example. Or what food is forageable in May. Or many other things that are nothing to do with the game of the economy, or democracy, but I know how the game works. Because it's designed for, and by, people like me. As is its education system, obviously. 

[RicoS321]

4 minutes ago, Don Julio said:

I get you. Although power and control are pretty universal in the animal kingdom and so no system is ever born in a vacuum. 
 

There are attempts to change some of that. Believe it or not HM Treasury is committed to well-being as an alternative metric to GDP. I’m not holding my breath though.

Yes, but the animal kingdom isn't subject to abstract rules or voting. Lions don't vote. Nor did humans for 99% of their existence. An existence far more successful* and sustainable than the existing system, and which didn't lead to the potential sixth mass extinction. Voting is an abstraction that is deeply unnatural.

I can well imagine there are a hoard of lobbyists at the gates pushing for their preferred consultancy firms, who can use AI to measure well-being very accurately. Within certain boundaries, of course. Oh, and we'll need lots and lots of people's data for that too, as an aside. In an unrelated development, we also have sister companies that can provide fantastic well-being services. 

*Successful in terms of longevity and ecological fit, rather than abstractions such as most people, or best technology. 

[Mason89]

19 minutes ago, RicoS321 said:

*Successful in terms of longevity and ecological fit, rather than abstractions such as most people, or best technology. 

Are you not glossing over the bits where the human race was nearly wiped out and responsible for many extinctions before any of them had even heard of Michael Gove? I don’t think we’ve ever been a fit. 
The difference now is that the answers are already known. The problem is that most people either don’t care or prefer to actually work against it.  A change of mindset is required, especially from those vegetables on the right 

[RicoS321]

2 hours ago, Mason89 said:

Are you not glossing over the bits where the human race was nearly wiped out and responsible for many extinctions before any of them had even heard of Michael Gove? I don’t think we’ve ever been a fit. 
The difference now is that the answers are already known. The problem is that most people either don’t care or prefer to actually work against it.  A change of mindset is required, especially from those vegetables on the right 

Are you talking about the pre homo sapien bottleneck thing about a million years ago? I don't think I'm glossing over it, no. There were many extinctions prior to agriculture but, generally speaking, there was a sustainable background extinction rate, which rocketed (relatively speaking) with agriculture and then industrialisation. I don't think there is a good argument to say that we weren't a fit prior to agriculture, but we can definitely say that we aren't since. 

The answers to the sixth mass extinction are not known, as far as I'm aware. If they are known then they're not being discussed, they don't appear on any political party's manifesto (ever) and those on the left (in available party terms, not total spectrum I'm sure) are just in a different form of denial than those on the right as far as I can tell. I'm fairly certain that the answers cannot lie within modernity's framework, but would happily be shown otherwise. Maybe you can enlighten us with some solutions?

[Mason89]

I can’t see people voting for the Dumbarton Leftist Sheepshagging Alliance Party but I’d have it in my manifesto 

We are all aware of the upcoming problems humanity faces. There just isn’t the political will to deal with it - for now. 
 

Awareness of the problem combined with human ingenuity will offset a lot of it.