RicoS321

23 minutes ago, STFU_Donny said:

I hadn’t seen that angle but that makes me feel a bit better that we weren’t denied a stonewall penalty - just an attacking free kick 19 yards from goal. Amazing the assistant didn’t see that. 

The assistant would have been slightly behind Miovski, horizontal to him, I doubt he'd have had any real view of the ball hitting hand. Similar to the real time view on camera. Penalties for those types of incidents are a nonsense anyway, they're entirely distorted when viewed back and slowed down. The suggestion was that it would have been a pen if it was inside though. 

5 hours ago, theacademic said:

I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on this topic

No you wouldn't 

1 hour ago, RicoS321 said:

A perpetuating cycle if that's how you design your system. The BBC's very reason is to not unfairly bias one or other because they have more money, more supporters etc etc. They are incredibly biased, sadly. Not as biased as the daily record (or whoever) isn't a barometer of anything and, if anything, the BBC should actively counteract it, as it would, say, gender bias. The problem of bias in our game is the leading cause of it going through its worst period in its history and the BBC perpetuates, refusing to even recognise, it. It's a real shame that our clubs don't do more to call it out but, as you say, clubs like our own benefit from getting slightly more coverage than St Mirren and so on. 

I should have added that I also think that you are right to highlight all the good output they do, I think you're correct. I thought their coverage was good at the weekend and the championship coverage on a Friday excellent too. Their main radio show on a Saturday is appallingly bad since Richard Gordon left. 

7 hours ago, Panda said:

Is there more coverage to the old firm than others. Yes, that's because we don't have as many Livingston fans as we do Celtic fans.

A perpetuating cycle if that's how you design your system. The BBC's very reason is to not unfairly bias one or other because they have more money, more supporters etc etc. They are incredibly biased, sadly. Not as biased as the daily record (or whoever) isn't a barometer of anything and, if anything, the BBC should actively counteract it, as it would, say, gender bias. The problem of bias in our game is the leading cause of it going through its worst period in its history and the BBC perpetuates, refusing to even recognise, it. It's a real shame that our clubs don't do more to call it out but, as you say, clubs like our own benefit from getting slightly more coverage than St Mirren and so on. 

5 hours ago, DantheDon said:

What’s happening with Mattie Pollock these days? Is he getting game time at Watford now?

As @BigAl says, he's played a few for Watford now, so he'll be looking at a higher level than us given his length of contract. 

I think we have to be going for a left sided player too, it's fairly important at the level of player we're going to be looking at. Macdonald's error at the weekend came because of him not being able to confidently stride forward on his wrong foot. We've seen Gartenmann be a little shakey when he played there too. Pollock's strong suit isn't his ability on the ball, so you'd never want to play him wrong side, similarly Rubezic. We've put our eggs in the Rubezic basket for now, I don't see us getting a similar player in on big wages. People will say that the left/right foot thing shouldn't matter in professional football, but it definitely does. It's basically giving a player a handicap unnecessarily, so you'd have to sign someone who's, say, 10% better than a natural left footer just to remain equal. We've got a blank slate to sign someone, so we can afford to be picky. I really hope we're not going with Jensen for next season.

This guy's shite. Should go for Lennon.

4 hours ago, Panda said:

It wasn't penalty though, was outside the box. 

Whilst I had no issue with the commentary at the time, I agreed with their assessment, they didn't have access to that image, or anything approaching that. That's a bit like the SFA providing the lines after the event for our goal against Livingston to "prove" that guessing was the correct thing to do. The lads in commentary might have been correct, but they couldn't say so with any degree of certainty. In fairness, from memory, I think McFadden actually said "I don't know" in his assessment. Good to finally see a photo to put the incident to bed though, even if it has clearly been doctored by the masonic Catholic HunTims in the VAR room.

1 hour ago, Panda said:

Scales is an interesting one. Was arguably at fault for our second and third goals, but in the main I thought him and Miovski had a really good battle. That Miovski edged the battle is more down to him being a magnificent player and Aberdeen doubling up on Scales & Taylor - Miovski always had Duk or Clarkson to play off of, while Barron kept tearing forward to battle for any knockdowns.

I do think we should make another move for him. I think he might realise he'll be back up there next season. 

I'd be very happy with him, but I wouldn't be very happy with the inevitable months that the Tims will spend fucking us about only to tell us that he's only available for loan, one week before the window ends. The reality is that Scales will likely be backup there next season, but he won't be made aware of that in time for him to make an educated decision to join another side at the beginning of the window. It'd be far too high risk to go into another season waiting around to fill a key position, so if we've got options elsewhere, then it'd be best to pursue them. Ideally we'd be looking at someone with SPFL experience for centre half, but there's really only Findlay at Killie, who I don't think would come, or maybe Dunne that fill that criteria. Taylor at St Mirren looked excellent early season, but his form seemed to take a dip.

7 minutes ago, Panda said:

Go on then, what was wrong with the BBC coverage?

I thought it was okay, however they missed the fact that the ref was pointing towards our goal for the penalty incident, and they failed to find out, or show what the actual decision was given for. Also, MacLeod has a weird erection for all things Celtic for a Dons fan. Waxing lyrical about the number of finals, winners medals for McGregor etc without any hint towards the huge structural bias in their favour is just weird. Otherwise, it was decent I thought.

Like almost every other provider these days, they can't have a second to breathe in their coverage, which is really frustrating. Every moment the ball is out of play must be filled with player close-ups, fan close-ups, manager close-ups, which means you don't get to see any of the positional play - how quick we are to gain shape, if we're pressing high on throws or whatever. I hold the BBC to a higher standard, as it's not just there to hold viewer's attention like the private channels, but I realise that's extremely unfair. I suspect they don't do their own production anyway these days.

55 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

FWIW, hasn’t scales been one of their better players this year? 

I think their opinion on Scales has significantly changed for the worse over the last few months. I don't see him being in their starting eleven next year. The long stint in their first team will have put him beyond our means now though, which is fine - he would see us as a big step down, and will likely get a shot down South or abroad based on his initial performances.

Which brings us to our defence. Somebody like Scales would be exactly what we need. Gartenmann had a really good game at the weekend, as he's had in many of the bigger games, but he struggles against the big lad that a lot of our crappier opponents deploy. We need that physical presence that Rubezic (or someone like him) offers to compliment a guy like Gartenmann. Howwver, Rubi is right footed, and that means Gartenmann having to play on his left. Given that he's just a loanee, I'd think that keeping him on is not good business for us unfortunately. MacDonald should be backup for Rubezic, Jensen should be let go, and we go into the market for a left sided centre back to play alongside Rubi. He should be good on the ball, with a good reading of the game, to balance out Rubezic's obvious flaws.

He's already downed tools, doesn't give a fuck. He's Aberdeen through and through now, just going through the motions with those Swedish losers.

8 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

The one I don’t like, much like yesterday, is the foul in the build up. Either call it in the moment or don’t. Call the foul before the goal or play on and allow the goal. Case and point the miovski goal (against Celtic I think, maybe hearts??) where there was the accidental contact with miovski and defender and play continues and he scores. Call it there and then or let the play go. Undermining a ref and picking up on things he missed isn’t the ideal way to work with refs. Let the games flow in the moment.
VAR also takes everything so literal that it manufactures fouls rather than letting the game flow in a natural manner. A number of penalties this year where I just don’t think are really fouls.

Major change needed for the good of the game.

The foul in the build up never gets called though, the Miovski one you mention was a VAR call after the event that the ref missed. There is no option for VAR to stop play that quickly. The ref on Saturday seems to be an outlier, in that he saw a foul and didn't blow. That only occurs for offside normally.

Agree about the manufacturing of fouls. The Scales one on Saturday would have been such a case if it had been given. A total unintentional handball at point blank range, which everyone can see in real time that the player knows little about. Slow it down and repeat it enough, with the instruction to find a foul in this incident, and you can quickly remove all context and give a penalty. That type of thing wouldn't have even made the highlights a few years ago, and nor would Miovski have been claiming for it. Now, even the most anti-VAR of us are discussing these types of incident in a different way "we've seen them given" etc. We've been drawn into the VAR way of discussing the game.

10 hours ago, tom_widdows said:

Ex Ref Bobby Madden was on Off the Ball yesterday and said the 'we need it in the SPL so Scottish refs can officiate champions league/ euros etc' claim is bullshit.
He also said he would take VAR back to what it was meant to find such as Henry's handball vs Ireland, Lampard's goal vs Germany.

Paraphrasing:
'If there is any element of doubt leave it to the referee'
VAR for Offside and major errors (Henry handball etc) only'

Just thinking of great moments in past games ive watched that VAR could/ would have ruined

First, let's be clear, Bobby Madden is a dick. Secondly, he's talking absolute shite. We've had these discussions from way before VAR's introduction, it was obvious to anyone that it is impossible to limit VAR to those incidents that are "clear and obvious", because there is no possible definition of what that means. Why is anyone even suggesting that after seeing the thing in action? Is he fucking deluded? How, exactly, do you define the Henry incident (the lampard one is easily covered by goalline technology)? Where is the defining marker that makes Henry's incident a "big error", and one that isn't? What happens when the Tims get an error defined as big enough to intervene, and the Huns don't? The answer is that they slowly move back towards where we are now, as was predicted by me and everyone else that discussed VAR before it poisoned our game (in any country). There is no such thing as a clear and obvious error, it has no definition, so Madden can fuck off. Why on earth does he want the game ruining, time wasting, offside shite still to exist too? Is a guy 6mm offside a clear and obvious error that has gained the attacker an unsporting advantage? 20mm? A yard? Are there really that many offside decisions so egregious, where a player has gained a huge advantage, that the technology is worth it? Of course not, because Madden's world doesn't exist. If it did exist, then it'd only intervene in about four occasions per season and would be as worthless as goalline technology.

2 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

The allowing play to continue does not add to the game either, just leads to confusion. Besides blowing late for a free kick because we didn’t gain an advantage/keep possession, how does allowing play to continue help our game??

The idea is that you allow the attacking team to finish their move in case the original call is incorrect. It makes sense (sort of) for offside, as that is an exact yes/no call. It makes zero sense in a subjective call for a foul. You're basically then VARing for a subjective foul and then any other subsequent subjective events afterwards. If the referee sees a foul, then he should always blow for it. I've not seen an incident like ours before, and I'm not sure if the ref's approach was correct.

The reason that you should just blow for a freekick, is otherwise there are two potential ways that exactly the same incident can be refereed. The referee could have let the incident play out and called the penalty (it was a penalty, apparently, that wasn't in question), thus VAR is making the decision on whether there was a foul in the build up. The referee's approach meant he was going to VAR saying: I have given a foul, is that a clear and obvious error. I have no doubt that in this instance, the two approaches would have garnered different results. Quite simply, if the referee thinks something is a freekick, then he gives a freekick. If he isn't sure, then it isn't a freekick. VAR offers nothing with his approach, and all he has done is sought to sway VAR's more accurate decision. Remember, in the case of offside being allowed to continue, the decision made by the onfield linesman has (and can have) no bearing on VARs decision, which is the important distinction. The linesman only actually raises his flag if a goal is scored in order to signal to the crowd, and also to make his decision in case of an issue with the technology. 

I'm glad you took this into the VAR thread, as I don't think the decision necessarily had an impact on the match, and it's not a case of partisan sore loserness, it's just a comment on the technology itself and how it was used.

8 hours ago, OrlandoDon said:

Another game, a semi final, where we’re left scratching our heads with VAR. I guess we’d be scratching our heads with referee calls but I just don’t see how VAR has made the game better. Certainly hasn’t added clarity. It definitely doesn’t add enjoyment, and it’s been a year where VAR seems to have impacts games and results. 
what were the real time referee calls for both incidents today? Didn’t see the scales one, certainly though with the hoilett one a penalty had been awarded??

Both calls were as they were if VAR hadn't been there. The Hoilett one saw Robertson blow for a freekick near the spot, making it look like he had given a penalty. He allowed play to continue (in a first for me) to see if we'd score, which caused all the confusion. That is VAR protocol and wouldn't exist without it.

59 minutes ago, BigAl said:

Haven't seen any TV pictures of the action, haven't yet read the comments on here but surely Robertson and his chums on VAR had a howler ?

I thought Robertson had a decent game in general, but the second pen is definitely a failure of some sort of protocol. Robertson let play go on as if it were an offside call, only giving the foul when the penalty incident occurred. He gave the decision in advance of the VAR check, which isn't the done thing, he should have given the penalty and let VAR decide on the foul, as he clearly wasn't certain on it. Because he made the call, the VAR can then just play the not clear and obvious card and avoid the call. Had he not made the decision, I'm absolutely certain VAR wouldn't have given that as a foul - because it fucking wasn't one. Again, just another inconsistency of VAR that makes it impossible for anyone to understand and follow what's going on.

Looking at the penalty one again, it appears that the ref let play go and called it once the penalty incident occurred, in the same way as linesmen are told to let close offsides go for the play to develop for the attacking team. Is that a first in football (that a ref has allowed play to develop following a foul rather than an offside)? I've never seen or heard of it before. It's intriguing. There's a good five seconds between the incident and him giving it, that's just not the done thing, anywhere. 

1 hour ago, STFU_Donny said:

Get rid. His “injury” during the shootout and subsequent delaying of Duncan’s penalty was a disgrace. I can’t stand the prick. 

No need for the personal attack. Anyone that's ever had cramp (everyone?) recognises that you can't just run it off or whatever. It's a fairly sudden thing that pretty much disables you in position. He could have hopped out of the way and lay beside the goals for treatment, but I suspect that'd have been equally as off putting - there was no good answer in that situation. 

I actually really like Roos, comes across as a decent guy off the pitch. However, his six month spell of being the best keeper in the SPFL seems to have been the anomaly as he's been terrible this season, and he wasn't that great in his first few months at Pittodrie either. It's frustrating, as I think there's a goalie in there somewhere, but his confidence is zero. It's too important a position to hope that he might get his form back, but it's also a huge role of the dice looking for a new keeper. I don't trust the data approach with goalies, I think we have to hope that Thelin has seen someone he can trust.

1 hour ago, STFU_Donny said:

For me, Scales is 100% in the box. If it’s on the line, it’s inside the box. Stonewall penalty. VAR should be able to see that. 
 

The Hoilett penalty, there’s a foul in the build up on Johnson. It may be soft but it’s probably the correct decision. The issue is the ref taking so long to blow the whistle, causing more confusion than it should have. 
 

St. Johnstone had a goal ruled out against us for a similar foul on McGrath. 

It's not even remotely a foul, nor was the St Johnstone own against us. If those are fouls then heading  should be banned, it was two players going for the ball. I agree, though, it was the ref taking an age to decide and then blow. Factoring in the consequences of denying a scum final before making the call, in my opinion. He could have easily left that to the VAR and called the pen. There's absolutely no way that had he given the penalty VAR would have overruled it for a foul in the build up. 

I'm not convinced that there's a camera angle that can show in or out of the box for Scales' arm. I think it's in, but it's not clear and obvious. Either way, both decisions were called as they were and a world without VAR would have been fine in the circumstances. 

11 minutes ago, Kowalski said:

Thought it was all set up for Morris to score the winning penalty!

Great performance but it felt the officials were a bit too keen to see the Tims in the final! However if we’d been awarded a pen it may still have led to 3-3 but we’ll never know.

After a shaky start off the bench I thought Hoilett was great - the only positive to come out of Warnock’s jolly. 

Morris was already down the tunnel hiding. Saying that, despite being the most disinterested player on the pitch, he did put in a great cross for the Hoilett penalty incident. Just saw the ridiculous decision to award a freekick in the build up before the pen, it's unbelievable. I'm assuming that because the freekick was awarded that the penalty can't be and that VAR were just discussing the rules. I suspect that they can't overturn the freekick, as that's not within VAR's remit and that's why the pen couldn't be given? The only thing I'm not sure about is whether the timing was an issue, in that the ref didn't actually blow for the freekick until after Hoilett was fouled? A terrible decision all round. I'm not convinced that there was enough evidence to say whether Scales was in the box, VAR is certainly right not to intervene there, for the same reasons as it shouldn't have against Livingston. The Tims would have got both those today though, VAR would have found a way.

2 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

Yeah, my dig is more at the character. McGrath and Macdonald set the tone, we’re a bit of a soft bunch. Huge credit for 3-3 but you need the experienced guys to step up at penalties, although other than gartenmann all we had left were kids.

We weren't soft today, in general, and didn't lack character. There's a strong chance that Gartenmann just isn't great at pens, or maybe was struggling. McKenzie looked knackered too, so I suppose it's fair enough. Morris aside, I think we showed good bottle. Duncan showed a lot of bottle too, his was just unlucky really. 

I think they'd done their homework on Roos too, he always seems to move and for all their pens they just waited.

1 minute ago, OrlandoDon said:

And I am bitter. If it was rangers or Celtic the attacking team they get one or both of those penalties. 

Oh aye, without doubt. I wasn't convinced by the Scales one. The second was apparently a penalty, but the ref gave a foul for the challenge before Hoilett's apparently. I haven't seen it back since that was explained, and wasn't looking for it in real time, but I suspect it was a terrible decision.

3 minutes ago, OrlandoDon said:

the fact that we had 2 kids and a loaner taking penalties says a lot about our squad

Aye, and we still had Morris to take too. Thought Gartenmann and McKenzie would have been ahead of Phillips. Phillips isn't really the ball kicking type.

Phillips was never going to be the guy for pens. Nevermind.

Dicks 

Jesus, some game. Deserve this one.

Shame, we look fucked. Honking marking from Hoilett though. I'd take pens now, probably won't win it in the remaining 15.