Author Topic: Derby County  (Read 6786 times)

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Offline Slim

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2019, 02:59:10 PM »
 :eek:

He's easily good enough for that level, given a chance. It took Kenny McLean the best part of 6 months to get into the Norwich team, and he ended up being one of the first names on the team sheet in the latter part of the season.

The main thing that will hold him back is that it'll be difficult to get the initial chance, and unless he makes an immediate impression, he's unlikely to get a decent run of games to establish himself. Russell Anderson had the same problem when he went down south initially.

Offline Jute

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2019, 08:26:57 PM »
:eek:

He's easily good enough for that level, given a chance. It took Kenny McLean the best part of 6 months to get into the Norwich team, and he ended up being one of the first names on the team sheet in the latter part of the season.

The main thing that will hold him back is that it'll be difficult to get the initial chance, and unless he makes an immediate impression, he's unlikely to get a decent run of games to establish himself. Russell Anderson had the same problem when he went down south initially.

McLean got injured in first game of the season last year and was out injured for first 6 months. Got back in the team once he was fit.

Offline Tyrant

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2019, 08:34:55 AM »
Shinnie worked his fucking arse off in every game he played in and ensured that those around him did the same. He led by example. Some obvious limitations as a player, but a very good player for us.

I agree entirely. I was never one of the Shinnie boo boys like Minijc. Oddly enough he's gone quiet after Ojo's "indifferent" start to his Dons career.



Excellent points and totally agree, you can see the difference in our midfield already with the signing of two proper footballers in Hedges and Ojo.


Ojo is a totally different player from Shinnie, he can actually pass a ball and dictate a game, SHinnie couldn't do that, my point still stands Ojo looks like more of a footballer than Shinnie ever did as a midfielder.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 08:46:44 AM by Tyrant »

Offline minijc

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2019, 01:20:12 PM »
I agree entirely. I was never one of the Shinnie boo boys like Minijc. Oddly enough he's gone quiet after Ojo's "indifferent" start to his Dons career.
Gone quiet lol, early days for Ojo and he hasn't started well but I'm willing to give him time, much like I did with Shinnie but anyone that thinks Shinnie is a capable midfielder is mental and shouldn't be taken seriously, rather amusing that he was left out of the Derby squad at the weekend then made to play under 23s last night.
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Online RicoS321

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2019, 01:37:00 PM »
Gone quiet lol, early days for Ojo and he hasn't started well but I'm willing to give him time, much like I did with Shinnie but anyone that thinks Shinnie is a capable midfielder is mental and shouldn't be taken seriously, rather amusing that he was left out of the Derby squad at the weekend then made to play under 23s last night.

He is a very capable SPL midfielder. He proved that over several seasons. How he fares in England doesn't detract from that in anyway.

Offline minijc

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2019, 01:42:25 PM »
He is a very capable SPL midfielder. He proved that over several seasons. How he fares in England doesn't detract from that in anyway.
I'd argue that he never, plenty of games where he ran around like a headless chicken, unable to make a simple pass and worst of all his tackling was way below the standard required.
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Offline Tyrant

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2019, 02:28:07 PM »
I'd argue that he never, plenty of games where he ran around like a headless chicken, unable to make a simple pass and worst of all his tackling was way below the standard required.


Like Ojo who you already hailed as the complete replacement a fortnight ago?

Online RicoS321

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2019, 02:45:00 PM »
I'd argue that he never, plenty of games where he ran around like a headless chicken, unable to make a simple pass and worst of all his tackling was way below the standard required.

He was one of the best midfielders in the league in every season he played there. Almost always got the better of his opponent over 90 minutes. Including - regularly - likes of McGinn and McGeouch at Hibs and held is own against opposition in Europe (Burnley, notably). He was very good for us. His workrate phenomenal at times, regularly running himself into the ground where his teammates stood watching. Pretty much every pundit would agree and most AFC fans. We can discuss his obvious limitations, but none of that takes away from the fact he was one of the best in our league when playing for us. He formed part of a team with a very clear role. His simple passing was absolutely fine, it was when he needed to play a quick pass or a difficult pass where his limitations were notable - for which we had others.

Offline minijc

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2019, 02:46:17 PM »

Like Ojo who you already hailed as the complete replacement a fortnight ago?
Ojo can pass it's the tackling and looking slightly off the pace just now that's a worry, fact is though he's a different type of player to Shinnie and I'm sure given time he'll do just fine for us.
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Offline minijc

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2019, 02:52:04 PM »
He was one of the best midfielders in the league in every season he played there. Almost always got the better of his opponent over 90 minutes. Including - regularly - likes of McGinn and McGeouch at Hibs and held is own against opposition in Europe (Burnley, notably). He was very good for us. His workrate phenomenal at times, regularly running himself into the ground where his teammates stood watching. Pretty much every pundit would agree and most AFC fans. We can discuss his obvious limitations, but none of that takes away from the fact he was one of the best in our league when playing for us. He formed part of a team with a very clear role. His simple passing was absolutely fine, it was when he needed to play a quick pass or a difficult pass where his limitations were notable - for which we had others.
If you seriously believe he was one of the best midfielders in the league then you are actually mental.  Plenty of games where he ran around missing tackles, giving the ball away and failing to intercept the ball and these were in games that he'd surely be dominating if he was as good as you think he was.  Motherwell cup game when they horsed us down there being one of the worst performances I've seen from an Aberdeen player, if he wasn't classed as "one of our own" he'd have been slaughtered but oh no the usual shit got spouted like "at least he cares" "He shows passion and that's what we want".

Many Aberdeen fans are happy to wank over the passion he showed and simple ignore the basics that he continually failed to do, he was averaging a yellow card every 3 games and was bordering on being a liability as a midfielder, I get the role he was intended to do but much like Flood when he done a similar role there were more games than not where it wasn't needed.
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Offline Ten Caat

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2019, 03:35:46 PM »
Shinnie absolutely was one of the most effective midfielders in the SPL. I hesitate to say one of the best because he had very obvious limitations to his game....his right foot was for standing on only and it wasn't even too good at that at times......but whatever he lacked in technique he made up for in energy/work rate and leadership.

I do fear that a Dutch coach won't appreciate his qualities however and that his career at Derby might be over before it ever got off the ground. Can't see him going on loan to another Championship side.....absolutely convinced he will be back north of the border in January. Only sevco up here would be able to pay him his Derby wages if he were to come back up on a transfer and so they would likely be Derby's preferred option. He was an oldco fan as a young loon but even when they were rumoured to be interested in the past January/Feb, I never thought he would go there directly out of respect to Aberdeen. He might well be interested now though. Although they've got so many midfielders as it is....they may have lost any previous interest.

Only a fortnight ago I felt that we wouldn't consider him if he were made available for loan....just couldn't see where he would get a game after the highs of Chikhura and Hearts. If he were coming up on loan I thought Hibs would be the obvious fit. However Ojo has been piss poor in his past 3 games and we just lack the drive that he provided so if a loan were an option then I now think we really must attempt to get him back.

But unless Derby have a horror 2 or 3 months that results in Cocu getting bulleted...I fear his career there is over

Offline LA-Don

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2019, 03:52:23 PM »
Shinnie was effective for us. Work rate, leadership, passion and drive. Something we are clearly lacking now. I don’t see Cocu giving him a chance as the Dutch pretty much require the technical Shinnie doesn’t have. In an average to below average league Shinnie was certainly one of the better midfielders but EPL and championship teams do pretty much require more than he has. Think he may have missed the boat at the Huns too with all their signings, I could see him returning to us in january.

Online RicoS321

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2019, 04:46:21 PM »
If you seriously believe he was one of the best midfielders in the league then you are actually mental.  Plenty of games where he ran around missing tackles, giving the ball away and failing to intercept the ball and these were in games that he'd surely be dominating if he was as good as you think he was.  Motherwell cup game when they horsed us down there being one of the worst performances I've seen from an Aberdeen player, if he wasn't classed as "one of our own" he'd have been slaughtered but oh no the usual shit got spouted like "at least he cares" "He shows passion and that's what we want".

Many Aberdeen fans are happy to wank over the passion he showed and simple ignore the basics that he continually failed to do, he was averaging a yellow card every 3 games and was bordering on being a liability as a midfielder, I get the role he was intended to do but much like Flood when he done a similar role there were more games than not where it wasn't needed.

Except he was miles better than Flood, technically and positionally. His running was generally not headless chickenery, it was - for the most part - targetted and relentless. The times it wasn't were usually when everyone else had stopped working or he'd already run himself into the ground. A yellow card every 3 games is absolutely fine for a player that was regularly making up for others' lack of workrate, which he was (especially in that Motherwell game, where he was pap alongside a host of other pap). Two Scotland managers, and pretty much every pundit on the BBC agrees with me. You seem to be thinking I'm saying that he was the perfect player. I'm definitely not. Like TC, I don't think he'll suit the game down South either. The limitations to his game are more apparent down there and his obvious attributes of drive, strength, fitness and workrate significantly less useful. I think he'd also reached the peak of his game in midfield and I don't see any avenues for him to improve as his passing isn't good enough to be like Jack or Ferguson or the like.

Offline rocket_scientist

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2019, 04:51:29 PM »



*** cue the pride being prickled and the insecurity of the weak intellect manifesting itself in failing to back down and digging deeper and deeper. It's incredible how it can't concede any single point, ever, typically of the stupid.
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Offline minijc

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2019, 05:16:44 PM »
Except he was miles better than Flood, technically and positionally. His running was generally not headless chickenery, it was - for the most part - targetted and relentless. The times it wasn't were usually when everyone else had stopped working or he'd already run himself into the ground. A yellow card every 3 games is absolutely fine for a player that was regularly making up for others' lack of workrate, which he was (especially in that Motherwell game, where he was pap alongside a host of other pap). Two Scotland managers, and pretty much every pundit on the BBC agrees with me. You seem to be thinking I'm saying that he was the perfect player. I'm definitely not. Like TC, I don't think he'll suit the game down South either. The limitations to his game are more apparent down there and his obvious attributes of drive, strength, fitness and workrate significantly less useful. I think he'd also reached the peak of his game in midfield and I don't see any avenues for him to improve as his passing isn't good enough to be like Jack or Ferguson or the like.
Can't agree with you on him being positionally better than Flood, the amount of fouls Shinnie gave away after getting caught out of position was staggering, notice how much Shinnies flaws showed up in games after Jack left, Jack covered for him quite a bit and Shinnie struggled when the onus was on him to dictate the midfield.

Two Scotland managers agree with you, that doesn't hold much weight when they are picking from a small pool of players and he's only managed 6 appearances, one of which he got completely shown up in.
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Online RicoS321

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Re: Derby County
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2019, 05:48:06 PM »
Can't agree with you on him being positionally better than Flood, the amount of fouls Shinnie gave away after getting caught out of position was staggering, notice how much Shinnies flaws showed up in games after Jack left, Jack covered for him quite a bit and Shinnie struggled when the onus was on him to dictate the midfield.

I actually thought they showed up more after McLean left, but I know what you mean about Jack being there. I'd argue that had a lot to do with Shinnie having to do the work of two players after Jack left because we didn't adequately replace him. Shinnie's role didn't change, he wasn't really asked to dictate, that was supposed to be McLean's role and it took a long time for him to get into that. When we had Flood and Jack, you could tell that Jack hated it as Flood was so unpredictable and would make the wrong move at the wrong time. That clearly wasn't the case with Jack and Shinnie, where Shinnie's game was easy to read and Jack knew when and when not to cover - they worked very well together. Jack is a better footballer than Shinnie though. Shinnie a significantly better captain.

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Two Scotland managers agree with you, that doesn't hold much weight when they are picking from a small pool of players and he's only managed 6 appearances, one of which he got completely shown up in.

You're not really making your point very well. I'll say it again: I am not suggesting Shinnie is an amazing footballer, I'm saying he was very good in the SPL and one of the best in the league. That is borne out by him getting - deservedly - into the Scotland. Of course that is a small pool of players. I'm really only arguing that he is one of the best of about 25 Scottish based central midfielders. You're even using the case of when he was awful at left back for Scotland as an argument against him being one of the best midfielders. Is McGregor at the Tim now shite because he was guff at left back the other night?

I have no problem with most of yer argument but when you say this:

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If you seriously believe he was one of the best midfielders in the league then you are actually mental

Then you just sound stupid. I might be wrong, but given the above evidence I've provided: his Scotland call ups, his move to a better club etc. it's clearly not the clear cut issue you're suggesting.