DonsTalk

Main Board => Off Topic => Topic started by: Stupie82 on October 19, 2016, 12:41:32 PM

Title: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Stupie82 on October 19, 2016, 12:41:32 PM
No matter how you voted in the referendum, if at all, how do you see this playing out? Will May trigger article 50, allowing for Brexit to formally take shape, will she be allowed to at all? after all, there are attempts being made to stop her doing it altogether, stating she doesn't have the power.

I personally think we are all being taken for ride with this one. High court battles are taking place to try and stop May triggering it on her own. My guess is it will go to a parliament vote, who will then kick it out altogether... for "the good of the country" of course. I just cant see it taking shape or being allowed to. Theres too much unknown about its effects. Now whether you think thats a good thing or not, it certainly would be against the will of people and the majority of the the UK!
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on October 19, 2016, 01:35:39 PM
My thoughts on this are well documented.
From day 1 I said it wouldn't happen.

As for hatchet face, to begin with I thought she would just pretend to want to take us out but eventually, once public opinion was softened have to "reluctantly " change tack.

If she is doing this then she is playing a blinder, in fact Teresa quine, if you are reading this, give me a quick phone call to put my mind at rest.

Leaving the EU is suicide, the politicians all know it and now they have to find a way to present continued membership in a positive light.

All it ever was anyway was infighting among the tories and it went hideously wrong.

As for being against the will of the people, well why don't we have a referendum on getting rid of all " darkies" and see how that goes.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on October 19, 2016, 02:27:14 PM
Leaving the EU is suicide, the politicians all know it and now they have to find a way to present continued membership in a positive light.

All it ever was anyway was infighting among the tories and it went hideously wrong.

As for being against the will of the people, well why don't we have a referendum on getting rid of all " darkies" and see how that goes.

Why is leaving the EU "suicide"?

The politicians do not "all know it". Haven't you ever seen BBC1 on a Sunday morning?

And it was clearly the will of the people to leave. You're not denying the principle of democratic process surely?

You must think that there is a net gain to the British people for remaining under a tertiary level of governance.
Haven't you considered the financial spend whilst remaining in it?
What about TTIP and other measures and the ease by which the EU can facilitate the US global hegemony project?
The NHS and the raping by the pharmas is pan-European.
Membership of the EU obfuscates the truth of public spending.
Surely independence from the EU would help us?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on October 19, 2016, 02:50:12 PM
Because it is
No ( well not for about 15 years)
Absolutely
No
You're joking
Ha
Definitely not

Oh, and fuck the Queen
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Stupie82 on October 19, 2016, 03:22:00 PM
My thoughts on this are well documented.
From day 1 I said it wouldn't happen.

As for hatchet face, to begin with I thought she would just pretend to want to take us out but eventually, once public opinion was softened have to "reluctantly " change tack.

If she is doing this then she is playing a blinder, in fact Teresa quine, if you are reading this, give me a quick phone call to put my mind at rest.

Leaving the EU is suicide, the politicians all know it and now they have to find a way to present continued membership in a positive light.

All it ever was anyway was infighting among the tories and it went hideously wrong.

As for being against the will of the people, well why don't we have a referendum on getting rid of all " darkies" and see how that goes.

Interesting we voted opposite, but both think it still wont happen. We differ on the democratic view of the referendum i see though. Regardless of the reasons why people voted for Brexit, they did so democratically and the government have a duty to now get Britain out of the EU. They wont of course, and it will be very interesting to see the public reaction when it eventually does get kicked out. No doubt there will be much posturing by anti-Brexit types, but I would be much more concerned about how a government can overturn such an important referendum, purely because they fear the unknown.

 

Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on October 19, 2016, 04:08:26 PM
It's the known that worries them, not the unknown.

They have put themselves into a bastard of a position though.
Public opinion will be " managed" as it always is and then they will have another referendum.

Either that or ( my preferred option) there will arise a centre party to replace the Liberals and this party will win an overall majority in the House of Commons.
Having run on a "remain in the EU" manifesto this will democratically overturn the referendum result.

My biggest fear is that Tony Blair has something to do with the new centre party.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on October 19, 2016, 04:52:21 PM
It's the known that worries them, not the unknown.

What is known? What do you know about the consequences of leaving that we don't?


( my preferred option) there will arise a center party to replace the Liberals and this party will win an overall majority in the House of Commons.
My biggest fear is that Tony Blair has something to do with the new center party.

A new "centre party"? This sounds like you still believe in right and left politics. There is NO right and left. The Tories under Cameron and Labour under Blair were exactly the same, pursuing the same agendas and serving the same masters. The Chilcott Report has ruined Blair's reputation for ever. He is soiled goods and much as they want him back, the people will never elect him.

There is change afoot. The people are waking up.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: PompeyDon on October 19, 2016, 04:57:14 PM
the fucking mess this government has got itself into would be hilarious, if it wasn't so serious.

If it comes to a vote in Parliament, I would expect it to go through.  Whether or not politicians agree with it is irrelevant
(I think most probably think it's bonkers idea, but are too afraid to say so), they will vote the way their constituency voted, to ensure they keep their seats (and expenses) at the next General Election.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on October 19, 2016, 05:00:28 PM
Cameron and Blair may well have had similar policies but neither is in power anymore.

The Tories are being ripped apart by their right wing and Labour by their left.
The only real difference is that Labour's fighting is all done in public while the Tories are much better at hiding it.

I hope you are right about Blair, you should be but it's a frightening thought.

No point in arguing about it, just sit back and watch it happening, it won't take long.
A general election before the spring.

Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Buc on October 19, 2016, 05:40:31 PM
When brexit happens it may open some doors for the Scottish government .
It may even speed up the independence vote.
I've a we hunch though brexit may not happen . But you never know
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on October 19, 2016, 06:36:17 PM
Cameron and Blair may well have had similar policies but neither is in power anymore.

The Tories are being ripped apart by their right wing and Labour by their left.
The only real difference is that Labour's fighting is all done in public while the Tories are much better at hiding it.

I hope you are right about Blair, you should be but it's a frightening thought.

No point in arguing about it, just sit back and watch it happening, it won't take long.
A general election before the spring.

Arguing isn't a bad thing. It's how we both learn. It's how we all learn. Important to define the areas of contention however.

Cameron and Blair weren't ever in power. You think it was Tony's idea to kill Dr Michael Kelly?

He was the figurehead, the one who "pulled the trigger" but like "call me Dave" was never in charge.

You think Hitlery Clinton would be in charge? You think Obama is?

It's not the "right wing of the party ripping the Tories". I'll give you Corbyn being different and "traditional left wing" but look at who he's had to beat, Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper being of the exact same stock as Blair and Cameron. The media (BBC & Sky) ongoing demolition job of Corbyn hasn't worked as they intended. I suggest you do more work to determine who "they" are because your traditional right and left model is decades out of date.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Gervaise_Brookhampster on October 19, 2016, 07:10:06 PM
Rocket scientist....You might be interested to know Asda had a good deal on 10 Meters of extra strong tin foil yesterday.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on November 12, 2017, 05:39:49 PM
It’s about time the plug was pulled on this sham. We’re 17 months since the referendum and the government don’t appear to have a fucking clue.  In particular there appears to be no solution to the Northern Ireland border. I don’t believe the government can even walk away from negotiations because of the unresolved border issue.

Brexit will not happen. Time to stop the charade.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Elgindon on November 19, 2017, 03:25:50 PM
 Right,good time to not talk football.
   I was neutral on Brexit at the time of the referendum.Saw the benefits of both arguments but couldnt be swung enough one way or the other,so didnt vote.

  Am having a look at the no deal argument.Be interested in folks opinions on these guys opinions if you can be arsed

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBezWPpAdYM

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhKIqt_SIFg

 
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on November 19, 2017, 04:11:00 PM
It’s simple really. Either you are an English facist, a sympathiser of English facism or you’re not.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on November 19, 2017, 05:58:48 PM
Digby Jones very articulate and intelligent positions on everything. Very difficult to argue with him.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Elgindon on November 19, 2017, 06:57:15 PM

 Agree with you about Digby Jones.Didnt know much about Connolly.Some call him a bit pessimistic but he has a decent CV below
 "The publication of “The Rotten Heart of Europe” led the Wall Street Journal Europe to name Bernard as one of its outstanding Europeans of the year in 1995 and in March 2001 he received the Frøde Jakobsen prize, awarded in Denmark for outstanding moral courage in public affairs. Bank of England Governor Mark Carney has identified Bernard as one of the very few economists who predicted the current global economic and financial crisis."

 He wrote his book,critical about the EU,while working there and lost his job as a result
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on November 19, 2017, 07:15:59 PM
Two great finds Elgindon, thank you. Bernard Connolly also very impressive.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on February 24, 2018, 09:26:34 AM
The English (and their sympathisers) are nae right in the heid.

I can only assume it's a plot to give them an excuse to walk away in a massive huff.

The football equivalent of their latest meeting is......Donstalk decide to have a meeting on how much we are going to thrash Celtic by tomorrow.

A commitee is formed ( amid much bad feeling and threats to join the hat etc.) and we get down to business.

Rocket wants a 1-1 draw but after we threaten to expose him in The Mail for once fancying his secretary he backs down grudgingly.

My suggestion of 9-0 is rejected on grounds of over optimism at this point although we all agree it is the eventual goal.

Day turns into night and the debate goes on

As dawn breaks the sky we present ourselves to the waiting press, declaring victory,solidarity and a major breakthrough in Scottish football, even Rocket is persuaded to smile for the cameras (all be it from the back row)

Big Al announces our momentous decision.....The Dons are going to win 6-0 and Celtic are going to have Scott Brown sent off and miss two penalties.

Overly pleased with ourselves we head for home.








Now, we only have to convince Celtic.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: manc_don on February 24, 2018, 10:02:06 AM
Well, that got a laugh from me! Good work DD  :D
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on February 24, 2018, 10:27:50 AM
...even Rocket is persuaded to smile for the cameras (all be it from the back row)

nae chunce









up front and personal, every time. Never find me in the back row.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on February 24, 2018, 10:57:01 AM
Shite, a split already.

How do we keep it out of the Sunday papers?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on July 09, 2018, 03:29:09 PM
Hopefully we’ll now see the end of this farce.

Time for a second referendum or general election.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on July 09, 2018, 05:22:52 PM
Farce from start to finish

Another referendum now

Land of hope and glory/ get rid of foreigners

Or

Stay European and work to change what’s wrong
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: manc_don on July 09, 2018, 08:30:18 PM
Farce from start to finish

Stay European and work to change what’s wrong

Stop speaking that sensible talk. Brexit means Brexit etc...ad infinitum ad nauseam
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: TheDeeDon on July 09, 2018, 09:55:22 PM
Farce from start to finish

Another referendum now

Land of hope and glory/ get rid of foreigners

Or

Stay European and work to change what’s wrong

She is going to be challenged for the leadership very soon, the big buffoon has had this calculated for some time and I suspect some more may resign also and force the leadership contest.  I do suspect Boris will end up like Tarzan and never get the prize he most wants, but fuck what a mess we would be in if he did, in fact we are screwed if any of the Tory right candidates get in, as they will make Camerons government look like Atlees posgt war government.

I don't think it can end in anything other then another referendum and whilst they are at it get another Scottish one on the go too.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on July 09, 2018, 10:32:02 PM
I don’t think Brexit can be delivered, the whole thing has been a waste of time. I think they all know this.
There’s no solution to the Irish border issue.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on July 10, 2018, 12:57:51 PM
I’m glad I’m not just a voice in the wilderness any more.

It won’t happen, it never could.


Of course it’s not beyond possibly that it could be delayed enough just to happen anyway.
But only if it’s in the financial interest of Boris and his like.

They will then, of course, just move to their villas on the Med
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on July 10, 2018, 02:01:10 PM
Nobody knew what they were voting for. The referendum was a farce in that what ultimately decided the vote was the very many thick white trash English racists.

But the European Union is a farce. It is a vehicle for the established order to things to continue the way it is and therefore totally corrupt, the additional tertiary and totally unnecessary level of government costs too much and the major players are unelected and unaccountable.

There are still people who read tabloids and believe what is written and there are other equally shit other people who are not tabloiders and voted Tory. The BBC and Sky are evil organisations and we've been so dumbed down that we believe what they, and any politician with a plummy accent, says to us. We get the situation we deserve... but for the proviso that we shouldn't have to deal with a whole system that is hypocritical and self-serving rather than of the people.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on July 10, 2018, 03:28:56 PM
Dumbed down?

I knew it was happening when I gave up the telly years ago but I didn't realise how bad it had got.

It was all kicking off yesterday morning so I thought I would look into the BBC news channel

It was some program called Victoria Derbyshire or something.

It might as well have been Floella Benjamin in playschool.

Politics for four year olds.







I'll edit just to add that there was bugger all wrong with Floella.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on July 10, 2018, 07:37:05 PM
That would be Baroness Benjamin, Lib Dem life peer

Who knew that Play School would spawn such a political big hitter..
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on July 10, 2018, 07:53:45 PM
Is she really?
Good for her.


I think we have Hamble as Prime Minister

A complete fuckin nonentity.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on July 10, 2018, 08:00:31 PM
Ha! playschool

There’s 11 years between me and my little sister.
 
When I was about 14 and skiving school big time, I used to watch play school round at my mates house in the morning.
( I know, I know, it explains a lot)

Anyway

In the afternoon, I’d be looking after my sister and we’d watch play school.

I was her hero, I always knew what window the story would be through.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on July 10, 2018, 08:40:45 PM
Nobody knew what they were voting for. The referendum was a farce in that what ultimately decided the vote was the very many thick white trash English racists.

But the European Union is a farce. It is a vehicle for the established order to things to continue the way it is and therefore totally corrupt, the additional tertiary and totally unnecessary level of government costs too much and the major players are unelected and unaccountable.

There are still people who read tabloids and believe what is written and there are other equally shit other people who are not tabloiders and voted Tory. The BBC and Sky are evil organisations and we've been so dumbed down that we believe what they, and any politician with a plummy accent, says to us. We get the situation we deserve... but for the proviso that we shouldn't have to deal with a whole system that is hypocritical and self-serving rather than of the people.

And yet you still voted for it.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on July 10, 2018, 09:02:06 PM
And yet you still voted for it.

My vote was based on the exact same rationale as why I voted for Scottish independence.

At least mine was an informed vote.

What did you vote and why?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on July 10, 2018, 10:14:57 PM
My vote was based on the exact same rationale as why I voted for Scottish independence.

At least mine was an informed vote.

What did you vote and why?

I voted to remain as I feel it’s better to fix it (the EU) by being it, plus there was a bigger shower of cunts on the Brexit side than there was on the remain side. I don’t believe in siding with Farage on anything.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on July 10, 2018, 11:47:21 PM
I voted to remain as I feel it’s better to fix it (the EU) by being it, plus there was a bigger shower of cunts on the Brexit side than there was on the remain side. I don’t believe in siding with Farage on anything.

So you think that unelected officials and corrupt institutions add value to anyone in Europe let alone the UK?

And you think this is "fixable"?

And you base your opinions on what Westminster politicians say?

What if a man who we don't like or agree with normally is right on one issue?

Is it the Sun or the Daily Record where you get your world views?

And do you trust the BBC or Sky more?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: tom_widdows on July 17, 2018, 07:25:25 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN1WrjlWLXQ
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: manc_don on August 01, 2018, 11:19:13 PM

The silence was deafening.  What an absolute tool. Hell would be too good for this fraud.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on October 10, 2018, 09:54:27 AM
With a news headline saying that the EU and England are getting closer in the Irish border issue, I don't understand the issue. Maybe I'm looking at it with the requisite simplicity.

If the tories go on about "taking control of our borders", and they do, and yet don't want a border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, what prevents anyone flying to Dublin then going to Belfast/Larne and entering mainland Britain that way?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on October 10, 2018, 11:02:26 AM
With a news headline saying that the EU and England are getting closer in the Irish border issue, I don't understand the issue. Maybe I'm looking at it with the requisite simplicity.

If the tories go on about "taking control of our borders", and they do, and yet don't want a border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, what prevents anyone flying to Dublin then going to Belfast/Larne and entering mainland Britain that way?

All the illegal immigrants near Calais will head west to Cherbourg and try to stow away on the ferries to Rosslare and Dublin, the infrastructure to prevent such occurrances isn't there and without a hard Irish border they will head straight for Belfast and onwards to the mainland.

May wants some sort of border in the Irish Sea but that is unacceptable to the Unionists in NI and if this agreement involves this then the Unionists will stop propping up the Tories and bring down the government in doing so. The only Brexit that can work is hard Brexit. Anything other than this is staying in the EU in all but name.

Of course if the government does get brought down then the question arises....will the nation actually have the balls to elect a Corbyn led Labour administration? It would unquestionably stand on a "rejoin the EU" ticket and if elected I doubt they'd even call a fresh referendum to ask the question.....they'd just say they were elected on a majority and as such had the mandate to do so.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Slim on October 10, 2018, 11:35:47 AM
Isn’t Corbyn pro-Brexit? I mean he’s not shouting it from the rooftops but I can’t see him offering us a way out of leaving the EU even if it would mean him getting elected.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on October 10, 2018, 11:51:34 AM
He absolutely is but nobody else in the Labour Party wants it and as such he will accept their position to guarantee no one challenges his leadership in the meantime. I guarantee if we are out that the next election whenever it happens will be fought on a "Labour backs rejoining the EU" ticket
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on October 10, 2018, 01:22:07 PM
I would very much doubt that. Once we're out we're out. Nobody's going to back an immediate return and the EU wouldn't allow it. It'd be the constitutional equivalent of letting the new huns in to the top league - we are very much the hun of the EU. For your scenario, you'd have to have a general election before the article 50 in March, which is cutting it very fine. At best, that will be campaigned with labour backing a second referendum. There is zero onus on Teresa calling a general election even if the proposed deal with the EU doesn't get through parliament. In that case it goes to no deal.

In terms of the border: no deal means a hard border (unequivocally, despite what Rees-Cunt might suggest). A hard border contravenes the UN Good Friday agreement to which the UK is a signatory (almost certainly). That hard border could move to the Irish Sea (then move again to hadrian's wall...) which the DUP wouldn't like.

As you said earlier, I don't see anything other than a hard border working, so either we get a hard border and Brexit or we get a customs union with free movement but with no control over the EU laws which we'll have to accept as part of the customs union.

This could, and should, have been on the referendum ballot in the first place.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on October 10, 2018, 01:35:33 PM
Out = out completely, anything else is just a fudge and not what the English facists voted for.

I still believe sense will prevail and we will remain full members of the EU

If not, I hope the bastards come out completely and suffer like fuck.

In particular those parts of the country that voted overwhelmingly to come out despite being the main beneficiaries of being full members.

Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: TheDeeDon on October 11, 2018, 07:35:34 AM
I think we will end up back at the polls in the next 6 months for a general election with the offer of another referendum to decide our future and in which we will vote to stay.

I'm sick of hearing about it if being honest, especially from all the experts spouting their shyte for whatever side they sit on.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on October 11, 2018, 09:33:27 AM
I also think it won’t happen and too can see another referendum.

There’s no solution to the Irish border problem.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: TheDeeDon on October 11, 2018, 12:02:40 PM
I also think it won’t happen and too can see another referendum.

There’s no solution to the Irish border problem.

There is actually, give NI back to the Irish. Can't see that causing any issues.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on October 11, 2018, 12:19:24 PM
There is actually, give NI back to the Irish. Can't see that causing any issues.  ;)

Supposedly the ratio of Catholics to Protestants in NI is very close to being 50:50 now and Catholics should outnumber Protestants by the middle of this century. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see NI rejoining with the Republic before Scotland gets independence.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on October 11, 2018, 07:23:44 PM
Typical English ploy to section off a part of something then claim the moral high ground in a democracy.

Let Ireland vote, let all of Ireland vote, listen to the people's choice.

Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on October 12, 2018, 01:33:13 PM
There is actually, give NI back to the Irish. Can't see that causing any issues.  ;)


Correct.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on October 12, 2018, 02:29:28 PM
Watched a documentary about the NI culture of punishment shootings. It's not just accepted over there, the communities support kneecappings and bullets through the ankles and elbows. Fucking neanderthals these cunts, blinded by bigotry and hatred.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on October 12, 2018, 03:43:35 PM
Watched a documentary about the NI culture of punishment shootings. It's not just accepted over there, the communities support kneecappings and bullets through the ankles and elbows. Fucking neanderthals these cunts, blinded by bigotry and hatred.

Watch what you say about the Northern Irish, they'll set the bad spirits on you.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dup-mp-gregory-campbell-wants-sale-of-ouija-boards-regulated-31094502.html (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dup-mp-gregory-campbell-wants-sale-of-ouija-boards-regulated-31094502.html)
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on October 12, 2018, 04:38:58 PM
Watch what you say about the Northern Irish, they'll set the bad spirits on you.

I was hoping that you wouldn't tell them and I was banking on the known fact that these norn cunts don't log in here.

Actually, have any of us ever met an AFC supporter from Ulster? In our whole lives? I've not.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: tlg1903 on October 12, 2018, 05:48:49 PM
No I can't say I have.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Elgindon on October 12, 2018, 06:02:07 PM

 Used to be a guy called Ulsterdon on Abmad,and not forgetting Rory McIlroy..... 
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on October 15, 2018, 03:57:12 PM
It doesn't matter now anyway because we have a new royal baby to look forward to.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on October 15, 2018, 04:10:49 PM
It doesn't matter now anyway because we have a new royal baby to look forward to.

Young, Ginger and Black.

Aretha sang that.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on October 15, 2018, 04:27:07 PM
First line edited because it'll be deemed as racist

What's the odds if it's a girl they call it Diana?

Stuff those Froggies, kill one and we just breed another one.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: tlg1903 on October 15, 2018, 07:38:28 PM
Young, Ginger and Black.

Aretha sang that.

Paaaaaaahahahhahaha.  :thumbsup:  have a simmie.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: manc_don on October 24, 2018, 07:33:31 PM
https://www.ft.com/content/f853b544-d6cb-11e8-a854-33d6f82e62f8?fbclid=IwAR2EWqs35urowui89RYQSUGfSabILY8kqkmOPO7NTa20eskXN_3LGvG39zI (https://www.ft.com/content/f853b544-d6cb-11e8-a854-33d6f82e62f8?fbclid=IwAR2EWqs35urowui89RYQSUGfSabILY8kqkmOPO7NTa20eskXN_3LGvG39zI)

Crazy, how is that an acceptable solution?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on November 14, 2018, 06:37:47 PM
It looks like this could all unravel for May tonight/tomorrow.
Heading for a GE and/or second referendum.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on November 14, 2018, 07:23:47 PM
Irish border is just an unsurmountable problem. I reckon the Tories are hoping...indeed encouraging... that Irish reunification happens asap post Brexit.

Shorter term, May surely has to resign if her own cabinet throw out the proposals. The new leader would surely have no option but to call a general election within 3 months.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on November 14, 2018, 07:31:46 PM
I don’t suppose politics by assassination is a good thing.

But my god I could put a bullet through that bitch’s head.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on November 14, 2018, 08:05:39 PM
I think a hatchet across her face would be more satisfying personally.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: tom_widdows on November 15, 2018, 02:55:17 PM
Is it too much to hope this clusterfuck will actually bring about the destruction of the tory party and perhaps even kick out a few keystones in the control the privately educated moron class has on the UK?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on November 15, 2018, 06:15:36 PM
Let’s just get rid of the UK

Leave the English to their own problems
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on December 12, 2018, 09:41:58 AM
Popcorn at the ready tonight then.
Perish the thought of some right wing loony taking over who just wants us to crash out of Europe with no deal.
If May does go I hope it’s not a hardliner that gets the nod. If she survives then that’s no deal / hard Brexit off the table.

Still think no Brexit / second referendum is the most likely outcome of this clusterfuck.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on December 12, 2018, 09:54:20 AM
Popcorn at the ready tonight then.
Perish the thought of some right wing loony taking over who just wants us to crash out of Europe with no deal.
If May does go I hope it’s not a hardliner that gets the nod. If she survives then that’s no deal / hard Brexit off the table.

Still think no Brexit / second referendum is the most likely outcome of this clusterfuck.

Are the majority of Tory MPs not pro EU? So wouldn't that make the likes of BoJo or Rees-Mong unlikely candidates? Or am I thinking of the majority of MPs in general?

Any no voters of 2014 changed their position as a result of the blatant lying and nonsense? Those who are still in the "Better Together" camp do they genuinely believe that still? Please to be explaining how/why.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on December 12, 2018, 10:10:28 AM
Think she will win tonight but if her majority of victory is less that 50 I thin she's a busted flush and will resign anyway.

As a pro independence voter I probably take a very different view to the vast majority of similar voters in that I have been pro Brexit from the start. This is because it gave the SNP leadership a very good excuse to hold a further indyref a few years down the line from brexit. Scotland voted to remain but is being taken out against our will. Once we were out we would be able to see the tangible benefits of being in Europe that we were now being denied in the case of a hard brexit, or the utter shambles of a soft brexit where we essentially remain in Europe but without a voice.

Whatever happens tonight, Article 50 will be postponed, perhaps indefinitely. Can see no other outcome than a new referendum (which will infuriate those that voted brexit in the last one).......or more likely a general election in the Spring where the Conservatives stand on a Brexit ticket and making clear that a Hard brexit will happen unless Europe renegotiates and Labour/SNP/LibDem/Others on a remain policy.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: tlg1903 on December 12, 2018, 05:44:56 PM
Agreed on all counts TC, when the brexit vote happened I was pleased from the point of view that it significantly enhances the case for indy regardless what happens now.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 12, 2018, 05:59:36 PM
May will survive tonight. Her opponents are ball-less men and not enough in number.

I voted for independent Scotland and for leaving the EU. Unelected cunts are never a good idea. They are a drain on us all and France will be next to bury the corrupt EU.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on December 12, 2018, 06:38:27 PM
And yet the SNP, unless they change, want to leave the UK but stay/join the EU.

Brexit has weakened the case for Indy, only because this whole shambles will put some folk off voting for Indy. Even though Indy couldn’t and shouldn’t be as complicated as trying to exit the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on December 12, 2018, 09:19:04 PM
Hardly a convincing victory for May but a good night for remainers.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Garlogie_Granite on December 13, 2018, 10:14:28 AM
And yet the SNP, unless they change, want to leave the UK but stay/join the EU.

Brexit has weakened the case for Indy, only because this whole shambles will put some folk off voting for Indy. Even though Indy couldn’t and shouldn’t be as complicated as trying to exit the EU.
Well yes and no, it's strengthened the case for indy, but many will align the two and think as you say, indeed raving yoons already using that line. it's amazing that they think "look what an erse we're making of Brexit, that's you that is" is a winner. Sadly it will be.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on December 13, 2018, 12:52:45 PM
And yet the SNP, unless they change, want to leave the UK but stay/join the EU.

Brexit has weakened the case for Indy, only because this whole shambles will put some folk off voting for Indy. Even though Indy couldn’t and shouldn’t be as complicated as trying to exit the EU.



You're joking min.
The English will love making it as hard and complicated as they can.

Our only hope is being equal partners with the English within the EU




I would love to see their faces however if we got independence re joined the EU and also signed up for Shengen.


They think they've got a border with the Irish do they?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on December 13, 2018, 01:03:49 PM
Can see no other outcome now than a total postponement of Brexit. Followed by a general election as the Tories self implode.

I can see the Tory party splitting into 2 separate parties in the not too distant future. One a centrist, less radical, pro European party. The other advocating a fairly hard brexit and probably inviting the remnants of UKIP to join forces (for those who are outside the UK or have been holidaying on Jupiter, UKIP has in the past few months been infiltrated by new members closely affiliated with the BNP resulting in recent resignations from the party of (in UKIP terms) fairly high profile members including Farage).
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on December 13, 2018, 03:14:50 PM
Can see no other outcome now than a total postponement of Brexit. Followed by a general election as the Tories self implode.

I can see the Tory party splitting into 2 separate parties in the not too distant future. One a centrist, less radical, pro European party. The other advocating a fairly hard brexit and probably inviting the remnants of UKIP to join forces (for those who are outside the UK or have been holidaying on Jupiter, UKIP has in the past few months been infiltrated by new members closely affiliated with the BNP resulting in recent resignations from the party of (in UKIP terms) fairly high profile members including Farage).

As long as FPTP remains, there will never be a split of either the Tories or Labour. I've always thought that FPTP is an awful system, because it is. However, if it were to be replaced by PR it would actually make little difference given the lack of spread between large parts of the parties. As we see with this Brexit fuck up, there is a form of PR within the actual parties themselves. Currently, there is probably as great a divide between yer Blairites and Corbynistas (as they're both called) or yer Hard and Soft Brexiteers as there is between yer Blairites and Soft Brexiters. Yer left with this shite:


HardBrexiters----------SoftB---LibDem---Blairites-----------Corbynites

Basically all the decision making happens in that centre space, with a few limited foray into/appeasements to the right and left at times. That model above could easily be illustrating a 5 party system in a PR arragement, with a few limited forays into/appeasements to the left and right wings.

Fit I mean is, that a split is unlikely as that would involve losing the power that is only possible through FPTP. However, if it happened, it would have to be aaccompanied by a shift to PR. Depressingly, I think we'd be left with the same shite regardless. That centre circle of Soft Brexit to Blairites can never be pulled far enough in either direction to provide solutions to the challenges that are actually required for us to become a next level fucking ace species.

I think I should probably be in charge. This shit doesn't work.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on December 13, 2018, 11:48:01 PM
I was going to suggest taking charge myself.

I'm quite happy to hand over the reigns to you after a year though if you want.

By that time I should have things sorted out.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: manc_don on January 15, 2019, 08:26:41 PM
Quite a pumping for May
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Elgindon on January 15, 2019, 08:41:07 PM
 
 You paint a not very nice picture there Manc  :confused:   does this mean a GE?    :frown:
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: manc_don on January 15, 2019, 08:44:07 PM
It would have to be a second referendum.  GE solves nothing. That or asking for an extension to Article 50
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on January 15, 2019, 08:50:05 PM
Quite the shambles most of us expected 2 years ago. Article 50 needs to be stopped/postponed ASAP.

It’s a shame the government will win the confidence vote.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: TheDeeDon on January 16, 2019, 07:05:16 AM
It's a shambles, but it's been badly handled since the day the after the vote and doesn't look like ending anytime soon.

I think the best thing to do is postpone it for the moment and go for another referendum and see what the opinion of the country is now after the past two years. I suspect it would be a clear vote to remain, but fuck knows what happens if leave won again.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 16, 2019, 09:36:50 AM
It's been a shambles because the people involved are shambolic. May, Davies, Hunt, Grayling, Gove, Mundell etc. are all products of an arselicking fraternity without integrity nor a brain or a testicle between them.

The people voted to leave the EU for a very simple reason. We don't want another level of political types governing us, particularly an unelected bunch who's sole purpose is the furtherance of the corrupt globalist agenda. If our elected officials did deliver what the democratic process demanded, France and Italy would be next and the EU would collapse, as it should. The cost of maintaining the status quo would be total disaster and subjugation, the Orwellian nightmare in its fullest form.

Years of a complicit presstitute media have confused the middle classes, who's intake of processed food, drugs and political correctness have dumbed them down to a frightening degree. It's not just speaking truth that has become a revolutionary act, but seeing truth.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on January 16, 2019, 10:22:49 AM
It's been a shambles because the people involved are shambolic. May, Davies, Hunt, Grayling, Gove, Mundell etc. are all products of an arselicking fraternity without integrity nor a brain or a testicle between them.

The people voted to leave the EU for a very simple reason. We don't want another level of political types governing us, particularly an unelected bunch who's sole purpose is the furtherance of the corrupt globalist agenda. If our elected officials did deliver what the democratic process demanded, France and Italy would be next and the EU would collapse, as it should. The cost of maintaining the status quo would be total disaster and subjugation, the Orwellian nightmare in its fullest form.

Years of a complicit presstitute media have confused the middle classes, who's intake of processed food, drugs and political correctness have dumbed them down to a frightening degree. It's not just speaking truth that has become a revolutionary act, but seeing truth.

The bit in bold, I'm not sure that is the case. I don't believe the majority of people who voted leave knowingly did so because of globalism. Certainly not enough to take the threshhold beyond a 50% majority (i.e. the additional 2 percent). They might have railed against the results of globalism, but it could easily be argued that they railed against the results of austerity. Either way, it was a decision based in ignorance (I didn't vote, because I didn't have the knowledge to back that vote up) as can easily be seen in the resulting chaos. The referendum was a fundamental misrepresenting of representative democracy, and it should be ignored completely with a full apology to the electorate and explanation in doing so. As you say, the incompetents tasked with Brexit are not up to it, but nor do they have the convinction and strength to tell the public something that they don't want to here and dictate that that is what is happening. The bullshit about "respecting the people's choice" or "respecting the referendum" needs to be torn to pieces. There wasn't single Tory policy dependent on leaving the EU, so there was no constitutional requirement for change. Cancel Brexit, get an anti-globalist party together with a distinct set of policies which cannot be delivered as part of the EU and people (me, you) can vote for them based on those policies. Being part of the EU isn't a feeling or a throw-away status symbol, it's a tool and series of rules by which the UK runs its economy based on the manifesto(s) of the various parties represented in its parliament. The moment the EU prevents those manifesto promises then we user our elected representatives to negotiate so that they can be met or they leave. This is the sole reason why we cannot get a deal. There was no manifesto for it. Nothing written down that could definitively say what we were voting for.

Furthermore, that backstop is basically a safe route back into the EU. May's deal and remaining are pretty much the same end goal, just that May's deal will end up with years of negotiations in the meantime before the public elect a party who promise to end the backstop and go back to being part of the EU with a couple of appeasing changes thrown in.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 16, 2019, 10:59:35 AM
I have no doubt that the electorate includes racists and the incredibly stupid, most of whom would have voted leave. Just like the incredibly stupid and gullible voted remain because people in suits and plummy accents told them to.

You're making the same mistake Rico. You're talking in the same language, of deals and backstops. It's all spin, designed to obfuscate. We voted to leave. It was a very simple choice. Leaving the EU means not paying them £50m a day and it doesn't require a "deal". We just stop paying them and we exit. Trade isn't going to cease when we do. Business will always find a way. It's politicians with different agendas and "skills" who want to assume control. They have everything to lose. Haven't you seen the buildings and the expenses that we, the European workers paid for? Are you aware of the expenses claims made at Westminster? Do you know what's being engineered in our NHS?

Politics is completely corrupt, rotten to the core. They don't serve the people. They serve themselves and principally their unelected masters. Their nephews and fathers-in-law and brothers and sisters get rich from not doing anything. Be part of the system, donate and buy into their "cause" e.g. G4S, Carillion and SeaBorne and the public purse will be diverted your way.

Listening to Sky and BBC is tantamount to putting blinkers on. There is only truth and you won't get it from the fake news. The truth is, we voted to leave the EU. The Conservative party, your elected government, didn't think we would vote leave. Their arrogance and their detachment from the people couldn't imagine the result of the referendum. Their pretence of integrity and democracy can't hide the truth and they're in a total quandary. The media are deliberately adding to the confusion by talking in riddles, in "deals" and "backstops". None of them want change but the people do.

Edit: Your use of the word "austerity" is another terminological mistake. Just like 2008 after the run on Northern Rock sparked the collapse of the house of cards, where none of them could envisage that the CLO's would ever see the light of day and billions were taken from the public purse to prop up their system and "save the banks", Brown buying RBS, the people didn't stop working. Our businesses didn't lose money. Our productivity didn't drop. The word austerity was introduced to justify public spending reductions and to reduce our expectations. We were told to "tighten our belts" but we hadn't done anything wrong. Austerity is a political tool used by the totally corrupt puppets of the globalist masters.

Edit II: Boris and Jacob have been noticeably quiet of late. Can we imagine that the masters might have had a word with them? Were their children threatened? Was the file of their dirty laundry revealed?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on January 16, 2019, 11:36:18 AM
I know the issues regarding both the EU and Westminster, I'm not arguing for or against either. I'm simply saying that the vote to leave is utterly irrelevant and wasn't representative democracy, which is how our existing system works. The referendum doesn't fit into our system, hence why there is no solution. That is because our representatives do not recognise "no deal" as a viable solution. You will not get a majority in parliament to vote to leave the EU without a deal, so it's irrelevant whether it is easy/possible/difficult to leave the EU at the end of March. There is no obfuscation or confusion there just a thing that is. Saying that it was "a very simple choice" is also irrelevant, because it was not our decision to make. There is currently nothing in the Labour or Conservative manifestos that require us to leave the EU, ergo it does not need to be done. They need to cancel it, re-write their manifestos if they so choose and then use their authority as our representatives to decide whether those things can be achieved within the EU and leave otherwise. That's how representative democracy works, not a sham of a referendum. I would definitely vote for a party who's policies required us to leave the EU if those policies were what I believe in. The EU is just a trading mechanism and an organisational tool for our economy.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 16, 2019, 11:45:54 AM
You've swallowed too much spin. You're talking in the language of the politicians and the media. The vote to leave wasn't "irrelevant". It was the most relevant and decisive expression of democracy, one that hopefully can lead to wholesale change and the destruction of the corrupt globalist systems that ruin not just the lives of the vast majority but the planet that we all inhabit.

I'm not naive enough to think that revolution is possible. The people don't have enough knowledge nor fight within them. They sleepwalk into the future and the role of the media has been the biggest conduit of their ignorance. As I said, seeing truth is revolutionary. Acting upon it however needs courage and there's none of that kicking about.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 16, 2019, 11:50:43 AM
When I say "ruin the lives of the vast majority", I include you and I. Just because "I'm all right Jack" and we run our own businesses and can live in nice houses, drive expensive cars and stay in nice places, buying whatever we want when we want it, think about the world our grandchildren will live in?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on January 16, 2019, 12:37:44 PM
You've swallowed too much spin. You're talking in the language of the politicians and the media. The vote to leave wasn't "irrelevant".

No, I'm not. Not one media person is saying anything like I am saying. They are all parroting the shite about "respecting the will of the people" and all that bollocks. I'm saying that the function of our existing democracy - in that it is a representative democracy - means that the vote was irrelevant, because the internal workings of the EU is exactly the responsibility of our representative elected. That is the system in which we live. We need to find a way to remove ourselves from that system by using the mechanisms we have at our disposal. The vote to leave was irrelevant to that process, nor was it it's intension.

Quote
It was the most relevant and decisive expression of democracy, one that hopefully can lead to wholesale change and the destruction of the corrupt globalist systems that ruin not just the lives of the vast majority but the planet that we all inhabit.

I'm not naive enough to think that revolution is possible. The people don't have enough knowledge nor fight within them. They sleepwalk into the future and the role of the media has been the biggest conduit of their ignorance. As I said, seeing truth is revolutionary. Acting upon it however needs courage and there's none of that kicking about.

Quote
When I say "ruin the lives of the vast majority", I include you and I. Just because "I'm all right Jack" and we run our own businesses and can live in nice houses, drive expensive cars and stay in nice places, buying whatever we want when we want it, think about the world our grandchildren will live in?

I am 100% in total agreement with both your points above. Couldn't have put it better myself. There are no parties currently proposing anything to solve the issues you highlight, nothing that leaving the EU (nor remaining) will do to solve the issues that you highlight and no appetite for the revolution that you and I know is vital in order for them to be solved. Nothing was mentioned in the entire process of the Brexit referendum, no solutions put forward. I recognise that breaking institutions down to the lowest possible level (e.g. Scottish independence) gives the greatest opportunity for change, and I understand the globalist project that the EU is, but none of these elements (to change them) have been put forward as a reason for Brexit happening, nor is it what the majority of Brexiters voted for (take back control, immigrants etc). I'd have very much voted for your version of Brexit. I don't see that version as any more likely or viable with a "no deal" brexit or remaining in the EU, so I'd be happy to remain in until that vision is presented (the presentation of that vision is not predicated on being in/out of the EU).
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 16, 2019, 02:29:16 PM
I am 100% in total agreement with both your points above. Couldn't have put it better myself.

Now I'm confused. The first line of wot I wroted that you agreed with was "it was the most RELEVANT and decisive expression of democracy..." and yet the first part of your post said that the vote was IRRELEVANT (for reasons you gave that I don't understand).


No, I'm not. Not one media person is saying anything like I am saying.

What is it that you're saying? Cos I sure as hell don't know? And why use 23 words when 11 will do? Summarise it.

I'm not having a go at you here Rico, "I respect you an all" (Vincent to Jools) and I think we might be on the same page (rare use of italics there, see?) but we're seeing different texts.

This line however is pretty frightening: -

They are all parroting the shite about "respecting the will of the people" and all that bollocks.

It is a foundation of the democratic ideal - itself just a lie and a philosophical pretext since hijacked by the xxxx - that the people vote and that our will is carried out.

The referendum was very simple. Either leave the EU or stay in it.

Just because May is an incompetent evil witch with a party full of yes men arselickers (as it always attracts throughout history), unable to negotiate anything (because you need personality and charm to get to a win/win situation) and presenting a shambles of a "deal" that nobody wants (not even many of her hoop-tonguers) and nobody voted for, this doesn't mean that the people don't want out of the EU. If project fear works - as it probably will, again - then any second referendum is bound to go the way the Tories wanted it too all along! This misses the whole point. It is less government we need, not more and with an extra £50,000,000 a day, the UK can do a lot better on its own.

We love the people of Europe. We do business with them. We holiday amongst them. And vice versa. It's the unelected politicians we don't trust and the system they prop up, the ECB and the IMF being the most evil and corrupt of them all.

The biggest tragedy right now is the uncertainty facing the great people we have in this country who came from Europe and who have no idea what's going to happen to them in 2.5 months time. This alone is a symptom that caring about people doesn't exist in the list of priorities of the ruling elites, them only being interested in helping their public school friends and their Oxford associates.

Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish people are fucking idiots. She may or may not be using the Brexit ref strictly for political gain (but I suspect not unfortunately) but there's no denying that the Scots 1. voted against independence, 2. voted remain, and most embarrassingly for us, 3. returned TORY MP's in the North East.

It's a right shambles right enough. Fuck me, two grown men can't even communicate with one another effectively using the same language (both our faults, no doubt).
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on January 16, 2019, 11:53:44 PM
Now I'm confused. The first line of wot I wroted that you agreed with was "it was the most RELEVANT and decisive expression of democracy..." and yet the first part of your post said that the vote was IRRELEVANT (for reasons you gave that I don't understand).


What is it that you're saying? Cos I sure as hell don't know? And why use 23 words when 11 will do? Summarise it.

I'm not having a go at you here Rico, "I respect you an all" (Vincent to Jools) and I think we might be on the same page (rare use of italics there, see?) but we're seeing different texts.

This line however is pretty frightening: -

It is a foundation of the democratic ideal - itself just a lie and a philosophical pretext since hijacked by the xxxx - that the people vote and that our will is carried out.

The referendum was very simple. Either leave the EU or stay in it.

Just because May is an incompetent evil witch with a party full of yes men arselickers (as it always attracts throughout history), unable to negotiate anything (because you need personality and charm to get to a win/win situation) and presenting a shambles of a "deal" that nobody wants (not even many of her hoop-tonguers) and nobody voted for, this doesn't mean that the people don't want out of the EU. If project fear works - as it probably will, again - then any second referendum is bound to go the way the Tories wanted it too all along! This misses the whole point. It is less government we need, not more and with an extra £50,000,000 a day, the UK can do a lot better on its own.

We love the people of Europe. We do business with them. We holiday amongst them. And vice versa. It's the unelected politicians we don't trust and the system they prop up, the ECB and the IMF being the most evil and corrupt of them all.

The biggest tragedy right now is the uncertainty facing the great people we have in this country who came from Europe and who have no idea what's going to happen to them in 2.5 months time. This alone is a symptom that caring about people doesn't exist in the list of priorities of the ruling elites, them only being interested in helping their public school friends and their Oxford associates.

Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish people are fucking idiots. She may or may not be using the Brexit ref strictly for political gain (but I suspect not unfortunately) but there's no denying that the Scots 1. voted against independence, 2. voted remain, and most embarrassingly for us, 3. returned TORY MP's in the North East.

It's a right shambles right enough. Fuck me, two grown men can't even communicate with one another effectively using the same language (both our faults, no doubt).

Aye, I'm not explaining myself clearly enough, clearly! The EU referendum was irrelevant, and the "will of the people" is irrelevant because we live in a representative democracy. That means we deploy cunts (always cunts) to do the "how/where" for us. Our decisions are, and always have been (in the UK), limited to a series of policies and manifesto pledges that we believe fit our desired narrative (obviously, there's a shite load of obfuscation and wankery amongst that), because that is what representative democracy is. We have never, ever, adopted a system of direct democracy (see Switzerland) in the UK, our system is representative democracy. I can't say that enough. That is the entire point. The fact that the EU referendum wasn't backed up by the BBC (Ch4, ITV, every UK newspaper) explicitly making this point at every single turn is the biggest scandal that exists in UK politics - everything else is irrelevant. The Brexit vote was not representative democracy, simple as. That's an undeniable fact. We've gone against every single principal we've ever been bound to in our political system for the entire existence of the UK. Think about that. It's fucking ridiculous. The referendum was pushing direct democracy on a country that has subsisted entirely on representative democracy for its entire democratic history. That's fucking ludicrous. And nobody is saying it. Nobody. It's the equivalent of a patient needing heart surgery and the surgeon deciding that, instead of just operating, he was going to put the treatment out to a vote of random members of the public - vote A for Stents, B for a bypass, C for praying. He's the expert in surgeonery, but he's delegating that responsibility to some people who've read some shite on the internet. If I was a politician, I'd be fucking raging that some cunt thought they knew the constitutional arrangements required in how to implement my manifesto succesfully more than I did. 

I'd class myself as politically aware; more so than the vast majority of my friends and colleagues. I'm happy to admit I didn't know the answer to whether we'd better off out of the EU based on the proposed (or not proposed) deal(s). There were no targets, no benchmarks, no goals - it was fucking retardedness. I didn't vote, I couldn't, I couldn't justify it.

Where I agree with you is in your reasons for wanting to leave, your thoughts on globalisation. The exact reasons that I'd want to leave the EU. All the issues that were never raised in the referendum, nor appeared in the manifestos/reasoning of those entities pursuing a leave vote. Because there wasn't, and isn't, a plan for those things. Just a faint hope that these things might come to the fore outwith the EU. There is zero evidence to back that up of course (in fact, the UK's involvement in TTIP and so on would suggest entirely the opposite), just a hope. But you're right, the refrendum was simple "stay in the EU or leave it" - it was just completely, and deliberately, disconnected from the end goals and targets of doing so.

Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 17, 2019, 10:45:12 AM
So your objection is that we were allowed to vote at all?

Because the cunts we voted to represent us know best?

Is that what you're saying and what you mean by "representative democracy"?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on January 17, 2019, 11:18:24 AM
So your objection is that we were allowed to vote at all?

Because the cunts we voted to represent us know best?

Is that what you're saying and what you mean by "representative democracy"?

Yes, exactly. That's not what I mean by representative democracy, that's what it is. The cunts that we voted to represent us might not know best, but it most definitely is their job to. It was a massive dereliction of duty, and continues to be. That should be called out at every opportunity, and someone with integrity and balls should have the leadership to say it and deal with it. Cancel, and come back (the Tories) with a proper proposal that either unilaterally declares independence from the EU upon voting at the next GE because the manifesto commitments require it, or a two tiered manifesto that allows for EU and non-EU membership which could then be subject to a referendum. In other words: Do it fucking properly.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on January 18, 2019, 01:33:36 PM
The question should never have been put to the public.  By and large the public are thick, gullible and not capable of researching to make up their own minds.  Many of them just believed what the Daily Mail/Gove/Johnson/Farage etc said....  even today Johnston is claiming he didn't use Turkey as a fear factor during the referendum, it's just lies plain and simple.  The Leave campaign was Project Fear led by some utterly horrible cunts.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 18, 2019, 02:32:48 PM
The question should never have been put to the public.  By and large the public are thick, gullible and not capable of researching to make up their own minds.  Many of them just believed what the Daily Mail/Gove/Johnson/Farage etc said....  even today Johnston is claiming he didn't use Turkey as a fear factor during the referendum, it's just lies plain and simple.  The Leave campaign was Project Fear led by some utterly horrible cunts.

Oh dear. Another who trusts Theresa and Call me Dave and Tony Blair. Another who thinks he knows best.

What return does EVERY European nation get from the money we pay in? What added value do Barnier and Juncker and the thousands of unelected officials provide? Is £50,000,000 a day from the U.K. alone a good investment?

We voted to go in fifty years ago but we're not allowed to vote out?

You should do your own research and find out what role the unelected cunts have in the globalist hegemony project. Then speak to the people of Greece, Italy, Spain and France. Not the corrupt leaders but the people. The EU doesn't work for the people. It's an ideal and an experiment that has failed, having been hijacked by the worst reptilian specimens ever to have breathed the same air as the people of Europe.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on January 21, 2019, 02:46:30 PM
The question should never have been put to the public.  By and large the public are thick, gullible and not capable of researching to make up their own minds.  Many of them just believed what the Daily Mail/Gove/Johnson/Farage etc said....  even today Johnston is claiming he didn't use Turkey as a fear factor during the referendum, it's just lies plain and simple.  The Leave campaign was Project Fear led by some utterly horrible cunts.

Do you not see that that's exactly how the No campaign was run in 2014 as well?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on January 21, 2019, 03:09:52 PM
Do you not see that that's exactly how the No campaign was run in 2014 as well?

I don't think it was. The No campaign was run in a very similar fashion to the EU No campaign. I disagree with Kow, in that the EU leave campaign was not project fear, it was just project lie. There was nothing fearful about the £350M on the side of the bus for example, but it was a lie. Project fear was blatantly the Remain campaign. The problem is that they failed to take the referendum seriously enough (and they were clearly a bunch that couldn't be trusted) to hammer home some of the difficulties associated with Leaving. They tried their 2014 fear approach, but it simply didn't work because nobody really trusted a word they said after at least 20-30 years of treating the electorate with contempt. When you dumb down politics (and probably education) to the extent that we have in the UK this century then feed them a bunch of pandering, half-arsed shite (on top of a decade of austerity) then the result should be fairly inevitable.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 21, 2019, 05:17:33 PM
There was nothing fearful about the £350M on the side of the bus for example, but it was a lie.

Are you saying that we don't pay £350m a week to the EU?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on January 21, 2019, 06:53:53 PM
I don't think it was. The No campaign was run in a very similar fashion to the EU No campaign. I disagree with Kow, in that the EU leave campaign was not project fear, it was just project lie. There was nothing fearful about the £350M on the side of the bus for example, but it was a lie. Project fear was blatantly the Remain campaign. The problem is that they failed to take the referendum seriously enough (and they were clearly a bunch that couldn't be trusted) to hammer home some of the difficulties associated with Leaving. They tried their 2014 fear approach, but it simply didn't work because nobody really trusted a word they said after at least 20-30 years of treating the electorate with contempt. When you dumb down politics (and probably education) to the extent that we have in the UK this century then feed them a bunch of pandering, half-arsed shite (on top of a decade of austerity) then the result should be fairly inevitable.

To be fair you’re probably right. Remain certainly didn’t take it seriously.

I saw a poll today where 25% of those surveyed thought “no deal” meant remaining in the EU  :hammer:
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on January 22, 2019, 02:48:59 PM
Are you saying that we don't pay £350m a week to the EU?


I took it to mean that the £350m that we paid to the EU being paid to the NHS instead was a lie.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 22, 2019, 03:37:13 PM

I took it to mean that the £350m that we paid to the EU being paid to the NHS instead was a lie.

That was a mistake in the campaign strategy.

I saw an excellent documentary last night, part of the Imagine series. Alan Yentob was profiling James Graham, the young playwright who has genius. Benedict Cumberbatch played a fascinating role in a series I must now watch, all about the campaign manager for Leave.

The UK does pay an extraordinary amount to the EU and exiting the EU would mean that the money would be spent here, not given to them and then only some of it coming back, after all, who pays for their considerable gravy train?

It wasn't a "lie" to say that it would ALL go to the NHS because only the feeble-minded would believe that. It was a mistake to mislead the public - who are incredibly stupid - that it would all go to the NHS. The far bigger issues are that we pay too much to the EU and that our NHS is in crisis.

Unfortunately if we want to go deeper than that and examine the precise reasons why our NHS is in crisis, then we will find corruption and deliberate engineering, big  pharma costs being nothing less than extortion (facilitated by individuals in Westminster and proven by their gross (literally) profits and balance sheets let alone the disparity for the same drugs internationally), waste running unchecked, quangos and consultants getting fed, computer and database costs draining many hundreds of millions over and above what were ridiculously exorbitant tenders in the first place and many more outright strategies designed to lead us into privatisation, some of which has already happened.

Our NHS is an exact mirror of the EU and the globalist hegemony project. Where there is publicly-earned money, and MANY BILLIONS of it, let's misappropriate it for ourselves is the agenda of the few.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 23, 2019, 12:40:09 AM
Are you saying that we don't pay £350m a week to the EU?

Rico, I just watched Brexit: The Uncivil War. It was phenomenal. Cumberbatch was brilliant.

The side of the bus actually said - We send the EU £350m a week. Let's fund our NHS instead.

It has been spin and lies from reptiles to suggest the Leave campaign said that all the money paid to the EU would be donated to the NHS. But it was clever campaigning as only a fucking half-wit could imagine that this is how budgets and financial planning works, and it is known that half-wits make up a sizeable portion of the electorate. It's not like the Leave campaign were the opposition or were ever going to be the government.

However, whether it's 350m or 300m or 250m we pay for the privilege, it's really not the point. Take back control was the point, a genius slogan devised by a genius operator, if the programme is factually correct on this particular point and I can't imagine that it wouldn't be.

The only potential "lie" peddled by the Leave campaign may have been the size of our EU payments. The fact that this alone isn't public knowledge and easily accessible by us all is a symptom of the absolute necessity that something had to change. Unfortunately the implementors of change voted Remain and are so fucking useless and corrupt, they don't know how to deliver what we voted for and are reverting to type, surreptitiously undermining the whole process. I pray to God that it's gone too far and they can't derail it but without leadership and vision, Dominic is right. It's a total fucking mess.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on January 23, 2019, 11:16:27 AM
I know what the bus said. It was a lie based on any reasonable and objective assessment. For obvious reasons. I'm surprised that you'd (or anyone would) even attempt to argue otherwise.

I enjoyed Uncivil War, but the glaring ommission of illegal funding was a little galling. Some things are too important to leave out and bought votes on either side should have been the number one focus given its impact in future elections. More so when such a slim majority is gained.

As I say, I've no issue with the concept of Brexit (no deal) at all, it just needed to be fully articulated prior to any referendum (like the independence white paper) and - in my opinion - should not have been subject to referendum at all.

That articulation should have said that our Brexit vision will consist of the following:
- Move to WTO rules
- hard border between NI and Ireland
- Freedom of movement revoked in the EU area

Again, I have no problem with the above statements at all, and all are consistent with what is now called a "no deal" brexit. Obviously the actual "white paper" would have added more detail, but these basic points would have been clear. The campaign, at no point, articulated this (even high level) detail (in fact it actively rejected the above statements on numerous occasions), which has allowed yer remainers to pish about with Deal or No Deal and "people's (wankers') vote". Without this statement of basic fact, it is very easy for remain MPs to form the opinion that at least 2% of people did not vote for the above - and I would be inclined to believe that too, thus removing any majority for a No Deal (which is exactly what I believe a vast majority of Leave voters voted for). The bottom line for Leave is, if you don't run yer campaign honestly and openly (which is very much borne out by The Uncivil War and the sloganeering highlight) then you deserve all you get when people choose to ignore the result - you give them a way in. The biggest thing that I took from the documentary is that if they actually ran a campaign clearly highlighting the above three points, I'm almost certain that they would still have won. Leave has to take the brunt of the criticism for the current shambles, they simply weren't prepared enough, not explicit enough and didn't give enough detail. It's like they didn't even believe they'd win by being honest. Stupid cunts.

Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 23, 2019, 12:06:40 PM
I know what the bus said. It was a lie based on any reasonable and objective assessment. For obvious reasons. I'm surprised that you'd (or anyone would) even attempt to argue otherwise.

Which of the two statements and 12 words were a lie? Don't believe the liars.


I enjoyed Uncivil War, but the glaring ommission of illegal funding was a little galling. Some things are too important to leave out and bought votes on either side should have been the number one focus given its impact in future elections. More so when such a slim majority is gained.

Illegal funding? It's a fact of life. Money talks. You think Obama and Trump would've got office otherwise?

This pretence at fair play is quintessentially British, and it's utterly hypocritical.


As I say, I've no issue with the concept of Brexit (no deal) at all, it just needed to be fully articulated prior to any referendum (like the independence white paper) and - in my opinion - should not have been subject to referendum at all.

That articulation should have said that our Brexit vision will consist of the following:
- Move to WTO rules
- hard border between NI and Ireland
- Freedom of movement revoked in the EU area

It wasn't "fully articulated" because your government hadn't thought it through and couldn't imagine the possibility of losing.

The three points of "articulation" you gave are so obvious (to anyone even slightly thinking about the implications) that they need not say it. Not that it would have made the slightest difference if they had.


Again, I have no problem with the above statements at all, and all are consistent with what is now called a "no deal" brexit. Obviously the actual "white paper" would have added more detail, but these basic points would have been clear. The campaign, at no point, articulated this (even high level) detail (in fact it actively rejected the above statements on numerous occasions), which has allowed yer remainers to pish about with Deal or No Deal and "people's (wankers') vote". Without this statement of basic fact, it is very easy for remain MPs to form the opinion that at least 2% of people did not vote for the above - and I would be inclined to believe that too, thus removing any majority for a No Deal (which is exactly what I believe a vast majority of Leave voters voted for).

Pseudo intellectual horse manure, the same shite peddled by the MP's who want to remain and who can't see the bigger picture, unlike 52% of the electorate.


The bottom line for Leave is, if you don't run yer campaign honestly and openly (which is very much borne out by The Uncivil War and the sloganeering highlight) then you deserve all you get when people choose to ignore the result - you give them a way in.

What was dishonest? Name one act that was dishonest? I didn't see anything in the play that supports your establishment view.


The biggest thing that I took from the documentary is that if they actually ran a campaign clearly highlighting the above three points, I'm almost certain that they would still have won.

It wasn't a documentary. It was a play, with fiction included, as per the opening statement. I agree that the people would still have won if the obvious, non-contentious implications had been spelled out.


Leave has to take the brunt of the criticism for the current shambles, they simply weren't prepared enough, not explicit enough and didn't give enough detail. It's like they didn't even believe they'd win by being honest. Stupid cunts.

The current shambles is fuck all to do with the campaigners. It's wholly down to your government being inept and out of touch with the people. The Leave campaigners aren't an opposition nor are they the government. They were people charged with doing a job and by targeting people who hadn't voted before, it was a brilliant masterstroke.

The PEOPLE of the UK voted and we want out of the corruption that is the EU. Dom called Farage an odious cunt at the end of the play, and by god he is but he was absolutely 100% on the money with his abhorrence of the unelected cunts who are doing things to our world that are so vile, it's being hidden by public incredulity, including yours. We need change. The IMF and ECB and the EU are vehicles to steal. If we had an independent free press, it might expose some of the corruption at Westminster and Brussels. You lot who voted remain can't even see how our NHS and public purse is being stolen and no amount of Seabornes and Carrillions and PFI's can change your views and make you see truth. Your public school Oxford educated government are common thieves and whether "left" or "right", Blair or Cameron et al, they are ALL the same. Do you honestly believe they were in charge? Do you think Theresa is? The office of Prime Minister, like the president of the US, is not in control. The globalist agenda will fail because China and Putin never bought in and whilst the middle east has been propped up by Saudis and Qatar, that fissure is going to crack too.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on January 23, 2019, 01:53:36 PM
Which of the two statements and 12 words were a lie? Don't believe the liars.

Two statements joined together - by the word "instead" - to create one single point not to be taken separately as per the laws of the English language. One point that implies that the gross £350M is the net position after EU inward receipts. It's like taking the turnover of AFC and wondering why we can't spend it all on 3 players as if we could simply ignore paying anyone. Pretty much everyone in the leave campaign has disowned that pish, I'm not quite sure why you'd defend it.


Quote
Illegal funding? It's a fact of life. Money talks. You think Obama and Trump would've got office otherwise?

This pretence at fair play is quintessentially British, and it's utterly hypocritical.

It's not a fact of life in British elections. US elections do not have the same transparency requirements over donations and fundings. It's a massive problem, and it should have been included in the documentary.


Quote
It wasn't "fully articulated" because your government hadn't thought it through and couldn't imagine the possibility of losing.

The three points of "articulation" you gave are so obvious (to anyone even slightly thinking about the implications) that they need not say it. Not that it would have made the slightest difference if they had.

No, they weren't obvious, and were actively denied by the leave campaign. If you can find a single quote from a prominent leave campaigner who said that there would be a hard border between NI and Ireland and that was what we were voting for, I'll send you a virtual congratulation. If you can find a single interview with a Leave voter where they are asked about the inevitable hard border and what they felt the consequences of that might be, I'll send you another.


Quote
Pseudo intellectual horse manure, the same shite peddled by the MP's who want to remain and who can't see the bigger picture, unlike 52% of the electorate.

I don't think you even believe that 52% of the electorate "could see the bigger picture" in your own terms.

Quote
What was dishonest? Name one act that was dishonest? I didn't see anything in the play that supports your establishment view.

It's an established view, not an establishment. I don't change my views because people I don't like agree with me. The play showed a campaign built on slogans and deliberate vagueness - i.e. dishonest. Not setting out their plan post Brexit was dishonest. Everything about it was dishonest, because it wasn't honest. Compare it with the indy ref as an example, and it was night and day.

Quote
The current shambles is fuck all to do with the campaigners. It's wholly down to your government being inept and out of touch with the people. The Leave campaigners aren't an opposition nor are they the government. They were people charged with doing a job and by targeting people who hadn't voted before, it was a brilliant masterstroke.

That it was a brilliant campaign only tells us that it was a brilliant campaign. The malboro man didn't make smoking any healthier, but by fuck it sold cigarettes.

Quote
The PEOPLE of the UK voted and we want out of the corruption that is the EU. Dom called Farage an odious cunt at the end of the play, and by god he is but he was absolutely 100% on the money with his abhorrence of the unelected cunts who are doing things to our world that are so vile, it's being hidden by public incredulity, including yours. We need change. The IMF and ECB and the EU are vehicles to steal. If we had an independent free press, it might expose some of the corruption at Westminster and Brussels. You lot who voted remain can't even see how our NHS and public purse is being stolen and no amount of Seabornes and Carrillions and PFI's can change your views and make you see truth. Your public school Oxford educated government are common thieves and whether "left" or "right", Blair or Cameron et al, they are ALL the same. Do you honestly believe they were in charge? Do you think Theresa is? The office of Prime Minister, like the president of the US, is not in control. The globalist agenda will fail because China and Putin never bought in and whilst the middle east has been propped up by Saudis and Qatar, that fissure is going to crack too.

None of this I would disagree with (most of it unaffected by EU membership) apart from the bit in bold (I don't believe that 52% voted out for that reason), hence why I didn't vote to remain. I feel let down by the Leave campaign as they didn't articulate a plan for post-Brexit and have left themselves open to the current situation. No amount of your ranting against the establishment changes that. They're campaign was childish and inarticulate and it will fuck them over. There won't be a no-deal Brexit and that is the issue I have with it. They should have taken a leaf out of Scotland's book, produced a manifesto and trusted in their ability to deliver it. They didn't and will lose because of that.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 23, 2019, 02:43:46 PM
Two statements joined together - by the word "instead" - to create one single point not to be taken separately as per the laws of the English language. One point that implies that the gross £350M is the net position after EU inward receipts. It's like taking the turnover of AFC and wondering why we can't spend it all on 3 players as if we could simply ignore paying anyone. Pretty much everyone in the leave campaign has disowned that pish, I'm not quite sure why you'd defend it.

We send the EU £350m a week. Let's fund our NHS instead.

That's what it said.

The remainers are so sore that they're clutching at straws and making excuses, just as you've done by twisting the record.

Who gives a fuck about implied? It was excellent campaigning.

The first was a statement of fact (that we pay an exorbitant amount to the EU).

The next five words was a proposal, a bloody good one. We should be looking after our own affairs INSTEAD to donating exorbitant amounts to fund a project that is doomed to fail.

We are not on the same page, not even in the same library. rather than go round in circles, let's agree to disagree,
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 23, 2019, 03:38:15 PM
Sky News and that cow Burley are filming from the Irish border today. It's become a big issue, this "backstop", one of the biggest.

Voting to leave the EU means that we "we take back control of our borders", as hatchet face repeated ad nauseam. So control them. This means that everyone coming here has a right to be here, including refugees. Have a policy. Do tour fucking work, government. The problem here is that hatchet face paid a billion to Arlene Foster and is beholden to the DUP in parliament.

It's a fucking mess, total mismanagement by an incompetent and corrupt government.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 23, 2019, 03:45:47 PM
The unelected rubber-faced EU officials are ALL consistent when the Brits stick a camera and a microphone in their faces. They don't want us to leave. They are project fearing us to change the democratic referendum.

Doesn't anyone wonder WHY the EU are desperate to hold on to us? Do you remember Cameron, pathetically pleading to us not to vote for independence? Did anyone ask WHY he was equally desperate? It's very simple. The bigger the organisation, the easier it is to get off with what they've been getting off with. Where was the follow up when that wifie on Question Time revealed that Cameron's father-in-law was the biggest beneficiary of EU wind farm technology grants?

Scotland staying in the UK and Britain staying in the EU benefits the bigger organisation and handicaps the smaller. It was ever thus. Unfortunately us Scots and we in the NE of Scotland are so fucking thick we voted No and returned Tories at the last GE. It's a fucking shambles, brought upon by ourselves. Either you can't see what's going on or you refuse to believe it. As Adolf said, the biggest lies shall be hidden by public incredulity.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: manc_don on January 24, 2019, 07:04:32 PM
I see, Dyson, a brexiteer, is moving production of Dyson abroad  :rofl: you couldn't make it up
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on January 24, 2019, 07:38:23 PM
I see, Dyson, a brexiteer, is moving production of Dyson abroad  :rofl: you couldn't make it up

Don't believe the establishment and the remain agenda but even the BBC got this one right. It's a transfer of two executives to Singapore and a new global HQ. The 4,000 production staff in the U.K. are unaffected. Dyson is a massive success story for Britain and he has done brilliant both for himself and the country. Given where the business planning of any major company will be, Asia becoming the biggest market, it makes sense that the HQ is over there. China is the biggest opportunity and growth potential not just for Dyson but many other western companies.

It's because he voted Brexit that the establishment tried to spin this against both him and us, the people who voted Leave. Plus a bit of the tall poppy syndrome at its heart, only the bitter, the weak and the useless being jealous of the success of true pioneers. Dyson is a genius and his products are the best in field.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on January 30, 2019, 04:50:58 PM
Well, despite what it looks like, I reckon the tory fascist bastards now realise they've lost.

It got to the stage where they were in danger of destroying the party so they've actually been very clever.

They know damn well that they will never get the concessions they require ( the complete capitulation they demand really)

So

Now they can blame Johnnie Foriegner, "They had it in for us, they wouldn't listen to reason"


They'll never get no deal straight through parliament but they will get a second referendum .
No deal v Remain

This is what the arseholes were voting for last time and May started campaigning weeks ago hence her little roadshows instead of wasting her time trying to change the minds of politicians.

1/ We vote remain
It wasn't their fault, the tory party stick together ( live to fight another day)

2/ We vote leave
God forbid, but the gallant tory party are the only people to see us through the dark days ahead.
Prepare for ultra right wing politics and strangely enough all the leading brexiteers making a lot of money.

Teresa May - gone either way
Boris Johnstone- He's trying to be Donald Trump, he's two years too late

Jacob Rees Mogg is sounding more statesmanlike every day and after his pathetic show of loyalty, Michael Gove will be crawling around near the top.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on January 30, 2019, 07:40:23 PM
They'll never get no deal straight through parliament but they will get a second referendum .
No deal v Remain

Correct me if I'm wrong, but no deal is exactly what it says isn't it? We just leave. In other words, it doesn't require to get through parliament, it just happens on leave day (at least that's the way it should happen).
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on January 30, 2019, 08:46:12 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but no deal is exactly what it says isn't it? We just leave. In other words, it doesn't require to get through parliament, it just happens on leave day (at least that's the way it should happen).

That’s correct.

Last nights votes were a farce. Conservatives putting their party first before the country. But it’s what the happy clappers voted for.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on January 30, 2019, 09:06:03 PM
That’s correct.

Last nights votes were a farce. Conservatives putting their party first before the country. But it’s what the happy clappers voted for.

But they are the majority voting block (with a bit of DUP thrown in), so their party is representative of the voting public at the last GE in theory.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on January 30, 2019, 10:37:05 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but no deal is exactly what it says isn't it? We just leave. In other words, it doesn't require to get through parliament, it just happens on leave day (at least that's the way it should happen).



Aye but if it looks like no deal then they can revoke article 50


Best not to listen to May, she’s a lying cow.
She used to say that it couldn’t be revoked.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on February 05, 2019, 05:53:54 PM
https://youtu.be/V3TT1VE8Jq0

Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on March 20, 2019, 07:45:51 PM
What a fucking shambles. It really is not clear how this is going to end. The hard right of the Tories seem to have May bent right over.  She’s doing a horrendous job.

Article 50 should be withdrawn.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on March 20, 2019, 08:44:32 PM
She’s just lost the dressing room.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: bearsdenred on March 20, 2019, 10:26:48 PM
This is a typical tory ploy.

they cant get rid of her, so watch as she tries to bring back the SAME deal with a threat, back it or its a hard brexit.

no matter what, the FM must get ready legally to dissolve this union asap.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on March 20, 2019, 11:53:23 PM
Cant see any other outcome now than May being forced out of office once her 3rd attempt fails...whether by Bercow not allowing it or being voted down yet again.

New Tory leader to call General Election standing on a "continue Brexit" ticket, Labour on 2nd referendum ticket and SNP increasing their representation to around 40/42 MPs hoovering up disgruntled marginals from both main parties.

Best guess Tories remain largest party but unable to form government even with DUP support. SNP to refuse coalition with Labour/Lib Dems so Tories eventually form minority government, second referendum to be held Octoberish which will be marginally for Remain. Disgruntled Brexiteers demand a "best of 3" third referendum but it never happens....


If that lot comes off I'll be investing in a crystal ball and starting a new career as Gypsy Rose Ten Caat
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on March 21, 2019, 01:38:05 PM
What a fucking shambles. It really is not clear how this is going to end. The hard right of the Tories seem to have May bent right over.  She’s doing a horrendous job.

Article 50 should be withdrawn.


Not at all. Better together, Kow. That's what you voted for and (presumably) got.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on March 21, 2019, 01:44:20 PM

Not at all. Better together, Kow. That's what you voted for and (presumably) got.

?

Nobody on either side has got anything.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Elgindon on March 21, 2019, 06:46:05 PM

 Just putting it out there,...4 of us,3 Nationalists,and 1 Unionist are all agreed we'd rather now go for a no deal Brexit than whatever now comes on the table.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izxQRRdDEkI
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on March 21, 2019, 06:50:33 PM
No deal is the only way.

Get the fuck away from the EU.

Deal with the countries and the people.

They will buy whisky.

We will buy cars.

The unelected cunts like barnier and junker are the problem. They cost too much.

If we had the balls to implement "the will of the people", the French and the Dutch will be next.

We don't want or need a tertiary level of bureaucracy.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on March 22, 2019, 12:00:02 PM
Predictions:

-MV3 defeated next week (if it is even brought to parliament).
-May to resign.
-Some chaos.
-Longer extension requested by April 12th.
-Take part in Euro elections.
-Eventually not leave the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on March 22, 2019, 12:07:18 PM
The perfect scenario.

Europe for ever.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on March 29, 2019, 07:42:44 AM
May's utter ineptitude was highlighted twice yesterday in tragically comic ways;

Sturgeon said May was the first in history to fall on her sword and missed.

Yanis Farouvakis likened the "deal" offered by May as one only the losing country in a war would accept.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on March 29, 2019, 11:11:28 AM
Nicola Sturgeon is the leader the UK wishes it had. She's absolutely brilliant. I'd love to see her debate with May on any topic.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on March 29, 2019, 03:23:31 PM
That's the end of hatchet face now. The horrible cunt said she would stand aside if they supported her deal, which was never going to happen for a very simple reason - it's a shit deal - and indeed has just failed again but she can't stay on now. She couldn't negotiate jack shit and even in her final address to the house where she should have been in persuading mode and trying to sell her position, she reverted to type, turned on her detractors and once again left everyone wondering the reasons why her husband ever married her. Some observers make the correlation between his status and wealth before and after his union with hatchet face and conclude that his reasons for marriage were less about love.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on March 30, 2019, 08:15:46 PM
It’s no longer about Brexit and all about the Tory leadership election now  :hammer:
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: tlg1903 on March 31, 2019, 05:20:23 PM
The whole thing from start to finish has been about the lead the tory party takes full stop if you ask me Kow.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on April 01, 2019, 08:50:24 AM
If only the spastics in this country would stop voting Tory.  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on May 24, 2019, 10:51:41 AM
Predictions:

-MV3 defeated next week (if it is even brought to parliament). TICK
-May to resign. TICK
-Some chaos. TICK
-Longer extension requested by April 12th. TICK
-Take part in Euro elections. TICK
-Eventually not leave the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on May 24, 2019, 05:48:10 PM
Get that tick on your last prediction and I’ll be happy.

Fuck off May , you useless useless bastard.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on May 24, 2019, 07:25:49 PM
No to continued membership of the corrupt EU regime.

Yes to the end of the hatchet-faced cunt.

The beauty is that the Conservative party are facing their biggest humiliation ever.

Because none of her successors are electable.

Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on May 27, 2019, 03:29:52 PM
I voted remain but the country (UK) voted for Brexit and that is what I believe must happen in order to respect the result of the referendum. ( And it gives us a cast iron reason for demanding a new independence referendum....if brexit doesnt happen then we ourselves would have no choice but to repect the result of indyref, at least for a generation)

There are remoaners on both sides demading a peoples vote to break the deadlock. With at least 3 options...no deal brexit, brexit with a deal and remain..... Very shrewd tactic if you can't see through it. Split the brexit vote whist only having one remain option allowing it to win comfortably. They also use the excuse that "we did not know what we were voting for" as an excuse. As I said...I voted remain but there was a clear choice....remain or leave. No middle ground. Those who voted leave did so trusting the politicians to deliver and theyre reneging on that trust.

I remember as a young loon....1975 I think...my parents voting in a referendum in whether to stay in an expanding Common Market...henceforth European Union or whether to leave. There were no details as to what this new entity would be nor how it would achieve it's goals or whether further expansion would take place. it was "in" or "out". Obviously we stayed in.....no one then was bleating about the result a couple of years later demanding people's votes. The politicians delivered what they were instructed to do. Years later remember the Lisbon Treaty. Blair/Brown promised the people a referendum on signing up to it....then completely went back on their word and signed up to it anyway. Indoing so landing up with the pernicious Human Rights Treaty that any old arse with a grievance now uses to sue whenever he is short of a bob or 2. ANd creating a whole industry of new "phobias" into the bargain.

I generally loathe Farage. There aren't milkshake factories large enough to pump out the quantities of product I'd like to drown him in (why no custard pies anymore....comedy classic they were??). However the results last night give him the right to be kingmaker going forward. The people have spoken.


And as an aside......fuck the Tories and Labour. You got exactly what you deserved. Indeed Labour might well be a goner forever in Scotland now




Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: tom_widdows on May 27, 2019, 03:57:25 PM
The people have spoken.

They certainly have

(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61444032_10161751522695481_5236670357758279680_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=e15bbc3baf0fcaf2da02101516d98a3f&oe=5D955EB5)
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on May 28, 2019, 06:45:09 PM
Fuck respecting the fascists.

Brain dead little Englander bastards
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on May 30, 2019, 03:47:27 PM
I voted remain but the country (UK) voted for Brexit and that is what I believe must happen in order to respect the result of the referendum. ( And it gives us a cast iron reason for demanding a new independence referendum....if brexit doesnt happen then we ourselves would have no choice but to repect the result of indyref, at least for a generation)

There are remoaners on both sides demading a peoples vote to break the deadlock. With at least 3 options...no deal brexit, brexit with a deal and remain..... Very shrewd tactic if you can't see through it. Split the brexit vote whist only having one remain option allowing it to win comfortably. They also use the excuse that "we did not know what we were voting for" as an excuse. As I said...I voted remain but there was a clear choice....remain or leave. No middle ground. Those who voted leave did so trusting the politicians to deliver and theyre reneging on that trust.

I remember as a young loon....1975 I think...my parents voting in a referendum in whether to stay in an expanding Common Market...henceforth European Union or whether to leave. There were no details as to what this new entity would be nor how it would achieve it's goals or whether further expansion would take place. it was "in" or "out". Obviously we stayed in.....no one then was bleating about the result a couple of years later demanding people's votes. The politicians delivered what they were instructed to do. Years later remember the Lisbon Treaty. Blair/Brown promised the people a referendum on signing up to it....then completely went back on their word and signed up to it anyway. Indoing so landing up with the pernicious Human Rights Treaty that any old arse with a grievance now uses to sue whenever he is short of a bob or 2. ANd creating a whole industry of new "phobias" into the bargain.

I generally loathe Farage. There aren't milkshake factories large enough to pump out the quantities of product I'd like to drown him in (why no custard pies anymore....comedy classic they were??). However the results last night give him the right to be kingmaker going forward. The people have spoken.


And as an aside......fuck the Tories and Labour. You got exactly what you deserved. Indeed Labour might well be a goner forever in Scotland now

I don't buy that. Not for a second. It's our democratic right to change our minds. I don't see how asking people to vote can possibly fly in the face of democracy. Especially when the deck was stacked from the beginning. Reminds me of a certain 2014 referendum which is also a dead cert to go ahead again due to said movement of political goalposts.


"Vote No to protect our place in the EU."  ::) :hammer:
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on May 30, 2019, 05:40:39 PM
Hitler was voted in .

The worst of the Tory fascists repeatedly say that people voted for the first time, they must be listened to.

Bollocks

They only voted for the first time because they are thick.
They are thick because you don’t believe in education for people with no money.
These people will vote to bring back public executions.

If you’re going to bring back killing people for the crowds pleasure then start with that bitch Teresa May
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on May 30, 2019, 06:40:17 PM
I don't buy that. Not for a second. It's our democratic right to change our minds. I don't see how asking people to vote can possibly fly in the face of democracy. Especially when the deck was stacked from the beginning. Reminds me of a certain 2014 referendum which is also a dead cert to go ahead again due to said movement of political goalposts.


"Vote No to protect our place in the EU."  ::) :hammer:
I'd rather we left.....if we don't Brexiteers will forever claim the will of the people was disrespected. As you rightly point out about the Indyref, we were made a promise that could not be guaranteed thus giving us a cast iron reason to re-run Indyref. If Brexit is stopped in whatever manner, then that cast iron reason is lost.

Now (unless there's a no confidence vote that gets through Parliament quicker), what could/should happen is the pro European parties fight the next General Election on a "rejoin Europe" ticket. Brexit supporting parties on a "stay out" one. Saves the vast cost of another UK wide referendum (we of course may be Independent anyway by then)
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on May 30, 2019, 08:11:24 PM
If you're not a member of a club then you have to be allowed / invited back in.

Why the fuck would they want the English back in?

By that time it's all going to be wasteland.

Anyway, they would never get back in with the deal they have now.

Not that it wouldn't be funny watching them grovel, because it would.

English fascist bastards
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: tom_widdows on May 30, 2019, 09:29:10 PM
Quote
I remember as a young loon....1975 I think...my parents voting in a referendum in whether to stay in an expanding Common Market...henceforth European Union or whether to leave. There were no details as to what this new entity would be nor how it would achieve it's goals or whether further expansion would take place. it was "in" or "out". Obviously we stayed in.....no one then was bleating about the result a couple of years later demanding people's votes. The politicians delivered what they were instructed to do. Years later remember the Lisbon Treaty. Blair/Brown promised the people a referendum on signing up to it....then completely went back on their word and signed up to it anyway. Indoing so landing up with the pernicious Human Rights Treaty that any old arse with a grievance now uses to sue whenever he is short of a bob or 2. ANd creating a whole industry of new "phobias" into the bargain.

I don't think you can use the 1975 referendum as comparitive example to the 2016 one.
This was before my time but as I understand it, in the 1970s the UK still had the following industries
- Coal
- Steel
- Shipbuilding
- Car manufacture
and had just discovered that lovely blackstuff that is killing the planet (Pollution & wars).

The internet only existed in science labs & military bases
Air travel was still for the rich.

If you had a business in the UK I suspect the majority of your work/ product sales were in a relatively local area. The idea of say an Aberdeen builder buying building materials from a supplier in Plymouth may have been considered madness. Saying you could buy it from outside the UK would may have seen you sectioned.

Having only been involved in the common market for 3 years I don't imagine there had been a dramatic change in  UK society so had the country voted to leave the impact would have been fairly minimal.

Fast forward 40 years

Air travel is cheap
Smart technology and the internet potentially allows someone in Scotland to run a business in Tanzania without having to leave the country
UK fishermen sell hugh proportion of their catch to the Spanish etc
The only car industry is niche poser sports cars
There are only about 3 shipyards left and they are fighting to stop being mothballed
No coal industry
Oil & gas is on the decline yet the UK not following the Norwegian model relies in imports from the continent to keep the nations heating on
The farmers have been fucked over so much by power hungry supermarkets and politicians stabbing them in the back they ended up selling their land to developers so the UK imports a substantial amount of its food. Any farmers left more often than not rely on the subsidies and workforce they get from the EU
The last remaining steelworks is owned by an Indian company and should they decide its not worth the hassle the UK building industry will be solely reliant in imports from the continet
The NHS relies so much on foreign workers because by some miracle we have managed to keep it a secret that our health service is crumbling and the staff are underpaid and treated like shit.
Our education system also now heavily relies on foreign teachers however word now seems to be spreading abroad that as with the health service you will get treated like shit and want to slit your wrists with the stress.

The skills shortage list for the UK is scary. Everyone seems to be going to Uni but no one seems to have any skills

In short our entire 'union' is intertwined with the EU and to suddenly just pull the plug on that the way they the tories are threatening is terrorism as far as I am concerned.

But because little england got its feelings hurt when it marched up to the the EU gang and said ' give me special treatment or I'm taking my ball and going home' only to find the EU had better balls and a stadium to play in, the posh minted wankers started the whole imperialism agenda and took advantage of millions of people in their constituencies who most of the time they would rather didnt exist painting this picture that everything wrong with the UK was the EU's fault. Nothing to do with successive governments cutting taxes, selling off assets to their cronies or just burning whatever cash they have to keep the fire going.

I'm getting fed up hearing the reteric ' we will take back control of our schools, health service, transport etc etc' but when asked 'what EU laws are actually stopping the UK from improving these things' they either change the subject, accuse the interviewer of being part of the 'elite', or even admit they havent researched any of the claims they just made.

Some say many voted for brexit because they had nothing to lose ie their life is so shit it couldn't get any worse so they may as well vote for a 'change'
I wonder how many of these people jumped on the Conservative bandwagon following the demise of the blairites and then blamed the Lib dems for how shit things suddenly got from them?
If the think life is shit now wait until the toffs in power get their wish and rip up workers rights charters, health & safety policy and replace all benefits with tax credits but only if you have a knighthood or went to a private school

I'll happily put up with brexiteers bitching and moaning should it be cancelled same as I put up with people bitching and moaning we no longer execute our citizens (watch that one come swinging back should a no deal brexit happen).

Funny how EIRE was once supposedly the restrictive cousin to the UK (possibly down to the amount of control the churches had) and yet within the EU they seem to be turing into a freedom loving eutopia (except for the northern bit the brits stole).
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on May 31, 2019, 08:00:29 AM
I'd rather we left.....if we don't Brexiteers will forever claim the will of the people was disrespected. As you rightly point out about the Indyref, we were made a promise that could not be guaranteed thus giving us a cast iron reason to re-run Indyref. If Brexit is stopped in whatever manner, then that cast iron reason is lost.

Now (unless there's a no confidence vote that gets through Parliament quicker), what could/should happen is the pro European parties fight the next General Election on a "rejoin Europe" ticket. Brexit supporting parties on a "stay out" one. Saves the vast cost of another UK wide referendum (we of course may be Independent anyway by then)


Nae if a new (or "people's") vote has an entirely different outcome. Which I think it would.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on May 31, 2019, 08:08:43 AM
I don't think you can use the 1975 referendum as comparitive example to the 2016 one.
This was before my time but as I understand it, in the 1970s the UK still had the following industries
- Coal
- Steel
- Shipbuilding
- Car manufacture
and had just discovered that lovely blackstuff that is killing the planet (Pollution & wars).

The internet only existed in science labs & military bases
Air travel was still for the rich.

If you had a business in the UK I suspect the majority of your work/ product sales were in a relatively local area. The idea of say an Aberdeen builder buying building materials from a supplier in Plymouth may have been considered madness. Saying you could buy it from outside the UK would may have seen you sectioned.

Having only been involved in the common market for 3 years I don't imagine there had been a dramatic change in  UK society so had the country voted to leave the impact would have been fairly minimal.

Fast forward 40 years

Air travel is cheap
Smart technology and the internet potentially allows someone in Scotland to run a business in Tanzania without having to leave the country
UK fishermen sell hugh proportion of their catch to the Spanish etc
The only car industry is niche poser sports cars
There are only about 3 shipyards left and they are fighting to stop being mothballed
No coal industry
Oil & gas is on the decline yet the UK not following the Norwegian model relies in imports from the continent to keep the nations heating on
The farmers have been fucked over so much by power hungry supermarkets and politicians stabbing them in the back they ended up selling their land to developers so the UK imports a substantial amount of its food. Any farmers left more often than not rely on the subsidies and workforce they get from the EU
The last remaining steelworks is owned by an Indian company and should they decide its not worth the hassle the UK building industry will be solely reliant in imports from the continet
The NHS relies so much on foreign workers because by some miracle we have managed to keep it a secret that our health service is crumbling and the staff are underpaid and treated like shit.
Our education system also now heavily relies on foreign teachers however word now seems to be spreading abroad that as with the health service you will get treated like shit and want to slit your wrists with the stress.

The skills shortage list for the UK is scary. Everyone seems to be going to Uni but no one seems to have any skills

In short our entire 'union' is intertwined with the EU and to suddenly just pull the plug on that the way they the tories are threatening is terrorism as far as I am concerned.

But because little england got its feelings hurt when it marched up to the the EU gang and said ' give me special treatment or I'm taking my ball and going home' only to find the EU had better balls and a stadium to play in, the posh minted wankers started the whole imperialism agenda and took advantage of millions of people in their constituencies who most of the time they would rather didnt exist painting this picture that everything wrong with the UK was the EU's fault. Nothing to do with successive governments cutting taxes, selling off assets to their cronies or just burning whatever cash they have to keep the fire going.

I'm getting fed up hearing the reteric ' we will take back control of our schools, health service, transport etc etc' but when asked 'what EU laws are actually stopping the UK from improving these things' they either change the subject, accuse the interviewer of being part of the 'elite', or even admit they havent researched any of the claims they just made.

Some say many voted for brexit because they had nothing to lose ie their life is so shit it couldn't get any worse so they may as well vote for a 'change'
I wonder how many of these people jumped on the Conservative bandwagon following the demise of the blairites and then blamed the Lib dems for how shit things suddenly got from them?
If the think life is shit now wait until the toffs in power get their wish and rip up workers rights charters, health & safety policy and replace all benefits with tax credits but only if you have a knighthood or went to a private school

I'll happily put up with brexiteers bitching and moaning should it be cancelled same as I put up with people bitching and moaning we no longer execute our citizens (watch that one come swinging back should a no deal brexit happen).

Funny how EIRE was once supposedly the restrictive cousin to the UK (possibly down to the amount of control the churches had) and yet within the EU they seem to be turing into a freedom loving eutopia (except for the northern bit the brits stole).

Superb post. Easiest Simmie I've ever dished oot. 
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Goldie03 on May 31, 2019, 01:47:13 PM
Superb post. Easiest Simmie I've ever dished oot.
Ha me too  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on May 31, 2019, 04:35:28 PM

The skills shortage list for the UK is scary. Everyone seems to be going to Uni but no one seems to have any skills



Now that’s a question needs answering.

Great post

Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on May 31, 2019, 04:40:11 PM
Girl I know who’s a florist was talking about the course she did at college.
Of course I was taking the piss about going to college to learn how to plonk flooers in a vase.

She’s a good quine ( and a bloody good florist) so she took the ribbing in good spirit.

She did however tell me about the class next door, folk walking about with hamsters in cages etc.

The course?
Pet management
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on June 03, 2019, 11:24:32 AM
The skills shortage list for the UK is scary. Everyone seems to be going to Uni but no one seems to have any skills



Now that’s a question needs answering.

Great post

Skills for what? All our shite is made in China, and most of that shite we don't need. What is it that we are missing (or is needed) in this country for which there is a skill shortage? Doctors perhaps? I certainly have had zero problems in getting tradesmen or mechanicing services; almost always a British person. What are the actual requirements in terms of skilled worker these days? It's certainly massively reduced. For example, if I'm making Ikea(esque) furniture for retail, then I don't need an army of joiners, I just need labourers to move shite from one CNC machine to the next and one skilled CNC contractor/consultant. If my electric car stops working, then I plug it into a computer to tell me it's fucked. Does anyone get their washing machine repaired or do they just buy a new one? If there is a skills vacuum then it's because there isn't a requirement for the skill. Beyond the hyper-specialist type roles that you mention, or the shifting of money from one account to another in the sudo-gambling financial industry, what are we missing? The EU is a globalist, expansionist organisation by design. It operates on the retarded constitutional surplus model. It is within that model that we've been afforded the opportunity to water down our skillset. For me, it doesn't really hold water that by staying in the EU we will rely less on imported skills, which seems to be what you're arguing for (or complaining about the lack of)? In fact, the overwhelming evidence - and the EU's trade, economic and monetary policy requirement and design - suggests that we will become less and less skilled. Surely a benefit, in your terms, to leaving the EU would be that it could force the UK to learn to feed/clothe/produce themselves (I don't think it would, but that's not the point, the point is that the status quo most certainly doesn't)?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on June 03, 2019, 11:52:17 AM
Good post Rico but it will be misinterpreted, skewed and selectively ignored.

Because it doesn't fit their argument.

The reality being that they have no argument.

Because they either can't see reality or they choose not to want to see it.

The war criminal Blair champions their cause. As does his sidekick, the shortest reigning PM. As did the second shortest time in office PM, before she was forced to implement the will of the people, holding on deliberately until now to resign only to exceed Brown's days in office. Her predecessor, the Cameron cunt was also a big remainer and so arrogant and misguided he never anticipated the referendum result let alone the ensuing mess.

We aren't so stupid to argue that the British people knew what they were doing when they voted. It was a fate of accident that they came to the right decision. We know that thick shit racists swelled the Leave votes. We know that the young and foolish voted Remain.

In his most recent rallying cry, Blair was right about one thing and one thing only. The world has changed in the last 40 years. But the change has been for the benefit of him and his class and to the detriment of the people, of all people, not just in Europe but throughout the globe.

It's not just the last 40 years. The true agenda of "the owners" (as George Carlin calls them) has been pursued since WW1, when financiers exploited chaos to impose a system that benefits only themselves. The EU is a product of that agenda and it costs an extraordinary amount of money that the people can't afford. Whether it was £350m a week or £225m a week is not the point. The £50bn divorce settlement is the point. How can that be justified by any reasonable party? It's a "deal" that only a losing party in a war would accept and May wanted us to accept it, even though she (and they) didn't want us to leave at all.

The media of course are puppets to their masters and they have engineered massive division amongst the people. Divide and conquer, it was ever thus. Facilitated by gross ignorance and an incapacity for critical thinking, also engineered by an education system designed to dumb down.

It's all fucked and it needs change. Power to the people is the only way to change it. The power presently lies way beyond Westminster. Our Theresa's are just pawns in their game.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on June 03, 2019, 12:21:39 PM
Did any of you miss the investigative journalists asking how much the EU get from member nations? And what happens to these BILLIONS of pounds each week? So did I.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on June 03, 2019, 05:31:12 PM
Bollocks Rico min

Just tell me how our English fascist friends are going to wage their next inevitable war, backs to the wall, dig for victory, when they haven’t got a steel industry.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on June 03, 2019, 08:12:23 PM
As does his sidekick, the shortest reigning PM. As did the second shortest time in office PM

An incredible effort considering they are both dead.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on June 03, 2019, 09:05:02 PM
Bollocks Rico min

Just tell me how our English fascist friends are going to wage their next inevitable war, backs to the wall, dig for victory, when they haven’t got a steel industry.

That doesn't really make sense as an answer to the questions I asked.

We've barely got a steel industry as part of the EU and it's heading in one direction. Do you believe that remaining in the EU would improve our chances of growing our steel industry? If so, why has the opposite occurred?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Elgindon on June 03, 2019, 09:45:29 PM

 Nae sure if I posted this clip at Brexit time,but this guys worth a listen  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4DKKOlsJeE
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: tom_widdows on June 03, 2019, 09:56:28 PM
That doesn't really make sense as an answer to the questions I asked.

We've barely got a steel industry as part of the EU and it's heading in one direction. Do you believe that remaining in the EU would improve our chances of growing our steel industry? If so, why has the opposite occurred?

The opposite occured (as I see it) thanks to the wonderful attitude of the 1980s conservative government who rather than open up to the eu and world markets at the same time as backing the UK infrastructure to be competitive and aspire to be the best in the world, they turned their back on them in favour of imports.
Some industries they just shut down completely whilst others they sold off into private hands which decades later found their way into the hands of companies from other countries - USA, India, France, China and so on.
The red tories under blair continued this pattern as did condom head and maybot.

A few weeks ago one of the tory lot suggested the way the UK will prosper from a no deal brexit and get lots of trade deals is to completely remove any tarriffs on imports stating 'the british deserved the best and cheapest products in the world'. His vision was the other nations would return the favour and remove all tarrifs on UK exports which would restart the UK as a manufacturing world power.
The presenter asked how something can be both 'best' & 'cheapest which lead to the tory footsolider just repeating his statement about britain deserving the best and cheapedt- the tactic used by politicians when they haven't thought something through.
The next question was how feasible would it be for UK based companies to compete if one of the major things in their favour (tarrifs/ taxes on foreign imports) was removed. Once again he responded with the best and cheapest line.

When british steel went to the wall the other week some tories and brexiteers quickly turned this on the EU suggesting because of their state aid rules british steel could not be bailed out by the UK tax payer but it would be different in a no deal brexit. The world trade organisation has similar rules on state aid and no country in their right mind would sign a trade deal with the UK without similar rules, after all how can 'private' business compete against a business who are automatically favoured by your trading partner's government.

When the aim of the government is to sell everything into private hands (the hands of their cronies) at the same time as ensuring said cronies pay little or nothing in taxes to fund the country's infrastructure/ society you find yourself in the modern UK.
The government sells tax cuts for the lowest paid as 'rewards for hard working families' when in essense these familes only end up with about £200 a year extra in their pockets but find their local bus services reduced but the fares increased, their kids school has lost a teacher, their bin collections are monthly, child care allowance cut, the local hospital has closed a department and so on, but thats ok because now you can go out and spend that extra £200 to make the country great again.

I would not have as big a problem with leaving the EU if the fuckwits who got us into this situation and proposed it say 15-20 years ago and had spent the best part of a decade planning how the UK could unravel itself from the various rules, regulations and laws relatively smoothley, and then put it the electorate.

Instead we got the kids playground
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on June 03, 2019, 10:46:50 PM
Yep, I'm quite familiar with the story. I just don't perceive the EU to be any different than, let's say, the Blair government. Austerity is an EU project. Their surplus requirements constitutionally promoting that - something that should be decided democractically invoked in law to avoid being subjected to democracy. I'm in complete agreement that the Tory version of brexit (i.e. the only one on the table) is horrific. The only question for me is one that I can't answer. Given that we know that the EU is essentially a globalist, neo-liberal project of slightly less greed and ugliness than the UK (look at their fire-sale of Greece) that has almost zero chance of reform, do we kick the can down the road, or do we ditch the EU and hope for either independence or that the Torys implode and leave something better behind? The choice is fairly shite.

I would not have as big a problem with leaving the EU if the fuckwits who got us into this situation and proposed it say 15-20 years ago and had spent the best part of a decade planning how the UK could unravel itself from the various rules, regulations and laws relatively smoothley, and then put it the electorate.

Instead we got the kids playground

That's about the crux of it for me like. Apart from putting it to the electorate. It should just form part of a party manifesto. We don't need referendums for constitutional arrangements. The tory cunts should have had it on their 2015 manifesto: "We will be banning foreigners, and in order to do so we will be leaving the EU - vote for us ye dicks". A referendum about EU membership is just fucking bizarre.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on June 03, 2019, 11:16:18 PM
Nae sure if I posted this clip at Brexit time,but this guys worth a listen  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4DKKOlsJeE

I think you did or at least I was aware of his views previously. What I wasn't aware of, as someone who studied public international law almost 40 years ago (a mandatory subject within the degree course at Aberdeen University) was the extent to which the ECJ openly and brazenly flouts and disregards the principles which have been generally accepted worldwide. Brilliant find and a conclusive case for exit.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on June 03, 2019, 11:22:32 PM
An incredible effort considering they are both dead.

Some are debating the reality. You favour pedantry and oneupmanship and choose not to participate.

That's fine. That's your choice. I apologise for omitting to add the words "in the modern era". It must have offended you greatly.

Were you aware of the significance of May's timing? Do you agree that it was directly related to the half-blind Fife fuck?

Isn't it tragic that "not a mother" Theresa acted from personal ego issues over the best interests of the country? Even you had seen that she was a lame dead duck a long time ago.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on June 04, 2019, 01:42:35 AM
The most prophetic and important argument against the EU...

Maastricht and All That

8 October 1992
1,954 words

Wynne Godley

A lot of people throughout Europe have suddenly realised that they know hardly anything about the Maastricht Treaty while rightly sensing that it could make a huge difference to their lives. Their legitimate anxiety has provoked Jacques Delors to make a statement to the effect that the views of ordinary people should in future be more sensitively consulted. He might have thought of that before.

Although I support the move towards political integration in Europe, I think that the Maastricht proposals as they stand are seriously defective, and also that public discussion of them has been curiously impoverished. With a Danish rejection, a near-miss in France, and the very existence of the ERM in question after the depredations by currency markets, it is a good moment to take stock.

The central idea of the Maastricht Treaty is that the EC countries should move towards an economic and monetary union, with a single currency managed by an independent central bank. But how is the rest of economic policy to be run? As the treaty proposes no new institutions other than a European bank, its sponsors must suppose that nothing more is needed. But this could only be correct if modern economies were self-adjusting systems that didn’t need any management at all.

I am driven to the conclusion that such a view – that economies are self-righting organisms which never under any circumstances need management at all – did indeed determine the way in which the Maastricht Treaty was framed. It is a crude and extreme version of the view which for some time now has constituted Europe’s conventional wisdom (though not that of the US or Japan) that governments are unable, and therefore should not try, to achieve any of the traditional goals of economic policy, such as growth and full employment. All that can legitimately be done, according to this view, is to control the money supply and balance the budget. It took a group largely composed of bankers (the Delors Committee) to reach the conclusion that an independent central bank was the only supra-national institution necessary to run an integrated, supra-national Europe.

But there is much more to it all. It needs to be emphasised at the start that the establishment of a single currency in the EC would indeed bring to an end the sovereignty of its component nations and their power to take independent action on major issues. As Mr Tim Congdon has argued very cogently, the power to issue its own money, to make drafts on its own central bank, is the main thing which defines national independence. If a country gives up or loses this power, it acquires the status of a local authority or colony. Local authorities and regions obviously cannot devalue. But they also lose the power to finance deficits through money creation while other methods of raising finance are subject to central regulation. Nor can they change interest rates. As local authorities possess none of the instruments of macro-economic policy, their political choice is confined to relatively minor matters of emphasis – a bit more education here, a bit less infrastructure there. I think that when Jacques Delors lays new emphasis on the principle of ‘subsidiarity’, he is really only telling us we will be allowed to make decisions about a larger number of relatively unimportant matters than we might previously have supposed. Perhaps he will let us have curly cucumbers after all. Big deal!

Let me express a different view. I think that the central government of any sovereign state ought to be striving all the time to determine the optimum overall level of public provision, the correct overall burden of taxation, the correct allocation of total expenditures between competing requirements and the just distribution of the tax burden. It must also determine the extent to which any gap between expenditure and taxation is financed by making a draft on the central bank and how much it is financed by borrowing and on what terms. The way in which governments decide all these (and some other) issues, and the quality of leadership which they can deploy, will, in interaction with the decisions of individuals, corporations and foreigners, determine such things as interest rates, the exchange rate, the inflation rate, the growth rate and the unemployment rate. It will also profoundly influence the distribution of income and wealth not only between individuals but between whole regions, assisting, one hopes, those adversely affected by structural change.

Almost nothing simple can be said about the use of these instruments, with all their inter-dependencies, to promote the well-being of a nation and protect it as well as may be from the shocks of various kinds to which it will inevitably be subjected. It only has limited meaning, for instance, to say that budgets should always be balanced when a balanced budget with expenditure and taxation both running at 40 per cent of GDP would have an entirely different (and much more expansionary) impact than a balanced budget at 10 per cent. To imagine the complexity and importance of a government’s macro-economic decisions, one has only to ask what would be the appropriate response, in terms of fiscal, monetary and exchange rate policy, for a country about to produce large quantities of oil, of a fourfold increase in the price of oil. Would it have been right to do nothing at all? And it should never be forgotten that in periods of very great crisis, it may even be appropriate for a central government to sin against the Holy Ghost of all central banks and invoke the ‘inflation tax’ – deliberately appropriating resources by reducing, through inflation, the real value of a nation’s paper wealth. It was, after all, by means of the inflation tax that Keynes proposed that we should pay for the war.

I recite all this to suggest, not that sovereignty should not be given up in the noble cause of European integration, but that if all these functions are renounced by individual governments they simply have to be taken on by some other authority. The incredible lacuna in the Maastricht programme is that, while it contains a blueprint for the establishment and modus operandi of an independent central bank, there is no blueprint whatever of the analogue, in Community terms, of a central government. Yet there would simply have to be a system of institutions which fulfils all those functions at a Community level which are at present exercised by the central governments of individual member countries.

The counterpart of giving up sovereignty should be that the component nations are constituted into a federation to whom their sovereignty is entrusted. And the federal system, or government, as it had better be called, would have to exercise all those functions in relation to its members and to the outside world which I have briefly outlined above.

Consider two important examples of what a federal government, in charge of a federal budget, should be doing.

European countries are at present locked into a severe recession. As things stand, particularly as the economies of the USA and Japan are also faltering, it is very unclear when any significant recovery will take place. The political implications of this are becoming frightening. Yet the interdependence of the European economies is already so great that no individual country, with the theoretical exception of Germany, feels able to pursue expansionary policies on its own, because any country that did try to expand on its own would soon encounter a balance-of-payments constraint. The present situation is screaming aloud for co-ordinated reflation, but there exist neither the institutions nor an agreed framework of thought which will bring about this obviously desirable result. It should be frankly recognised that if the depression really were to take a serious turn for the worse – for instance, if the unemployment rate went back permanently to the 20-25 per cent characteristic of the Thirties – individual countries would sooner or later exercise their sovereign right to declare the entire movement towards integration a disaster and resort to exchange controls and protection – a siege economy if you will. This would amount to a re-run of the inter-war period.

If there were an economic and monetary union, in which the power to act independently had actually been abolished, ‘co-ordinated’ reflation of the kind which is so urgently needed now could only be undertaken by a federal European government. Without such an institution, EMU would prevent effective action by individual countries and put nothing in its place.

Another important role which any central government must perform is to put a safety net under the livelihood of component regions which are in distress for structural reasons – because of the decline of some industry, say, or because of some economically-adverse demographic change. At present this happens in the natural course of events, without anyone really noticing, because common standards of public provision (for instance, health, education, pensions and rates of unemployment benefit) and a common (it is to be hoped, progressive) burden of taxation are both generally instituted throughout individual realms. As a consequence, if one region suffers an unusual degree of structural decline, the fiscal system automatically generates net transfers in favour of it. In extremis, a region which could produce nothing at all would not starve because it would be in receipt of pensions, unemployment benefit and the incomes of public servants.

What happens if a whole country – a potential ‘region’ in a fully integrated community – suffers a structural setback? So long as it is a sovereign state, it can devalue its currency. It can then trade successfully at full employment provided its people accept the necessary cut in their real incomes. With an economic and monetary union, this recourse is obviously barred, and its prospect is grave indeed unless federal budgeting arrangements are made which fulfil a redistributive role. As was clearly recognised in the MacDougall Report which was published in 1977, there has to be a quid pro quo for giving up the devaluation option in the form of fiscal redistribution. Some writers (such as Samuel Brittan and Sir Douglas Hague) have seriously suggested that EMU, by abolishing the balance of payments problem in its present form, would indeed abolish the problem, where it exists, of persistent failure to compete successfully in world markets. But as Professor Martin Feldstein pointed out in a major article in the Economist (13 June), this argument is very dangerously mistaken. If a country or region has no power to devalue, and if it is not the beneficiary of a system of fiscal equalisation, then there is nothing to stop it suffering a process of cumulative and terminal decline leading, in the end, to emigration as the only alternative to poverty or starvation. I sympathise with the position of those (like Margaret Thatcher) who, faced with the loss of sovereignty, wish to get off the EMU train altogether. I also sympathise with those who seek integration under the jurisdiction of some kind of federal constitution with a federal budget very much larger than that of the Community budget. What I find totally baffling is the position of those who are aiming for economic and monetary union without the creation of new political institutions (apart from a new central bank), and who raise their hands in horror at the words ‘federal’ or ‘federalism’. This is the position currently adopted by the Government and by most of those who take part in the public discussion.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on June 04, 2019, 01:48:38 AM
And thank fuck the UK never joined the Eurozone. For this, we need to thank the Eurosceptics, in particular the Labour party in the 70's and Thatcher in the 80's.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on June 04, 2019, 08:22:32 AM
That doesn't really make sense as an answer to the questions I asked.

We've barely got a steel industry as part of the EU and it's heading in one direction. Do you believe that remaining in the EU would improve our chances of growing our steel industry? If so, why has the opposite occurred?


I can see that we're going to have a problem with "we" and "our"

We (Scotland) don't have a steel industry because the English shut it down.
We (Europe) still have a steel industry
They (England) if they decide not to be us (Europe) are fucked, and the bastards deserve to be fucked.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on June 04, 2019, 08:56:48 AM

I can see that we're going to have a problem with "we" and "our"

We (Scotland) don't have a steel industry because the English shut it down.
We (Europe) still have a steel industry
They (England) if they decide not to be us (Europe) are fucked, and the bastards deserve to be fucked.

Really? Diminishing from 16% in 2007 to 10% of world output in 2017 would suggest that Europe's steel industry is only heading in one direction too. The majors being owned by India and the like other than yer Germans.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on June 04, 2019, 09:25:33 AM
That's a completely different argument from letting your own industrial base collapse just because you can temporarily buy stuff cheaper abroad.

I'm not usually one who goes on about defence capabilities but surely the Tories can see that if they want to think that they are sitting at the top table of military powers then they have to be able to build their own tanks and ships, given a blockade on goods.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on June 04, 2019, 09:54:25 AM
And thank fuck the UK never joined the Eurozone. For this, we need to thank the Eurosceptics, in particular the Labour party in the 70's and Thatcher in the 80's.

I completely agree with the above - the Eurozone is a fucking shambles.  Pre-Euro and post-Euro trips to Dublin saw a HUGE difference in the price of things.

So is the Schengen zone from a security perspective.  We're in neither, thankfully.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on June 04, 2019, 10:34:30 AM
I don't think tanks and ships and the manufacture of them during warfare is going to make any difference to the outcomes. If there was going to be a fight between the UK and any invading nation, the nuclear capability will settle matters pretty quickly, and probably end life on the planet too.

Ravenscraig got shut because it was uncompetitive. It was losing fortunes. As our coal mines were. Scargill and his ilk, the union mentalities, never anticipated global trade. They only wanted workers rights and considered the capitalist owners as scum exploiters, something to fight with and be a pain in the arse to, rather than negotiate and compromise. Our shipbuilding on Clydeside followed the exact same pattern, inevitably really. When workers elsewhere can live on a fraction of the wages we pay, the longer term outlook was terminal. Commercial aeroplane manufacturing will eventually go east too, once their technologies catch up. Boeing and others are creating demand for their own extinction given recent fuck ups.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on June 04, 2019, 10:44:04 AM
The ethos behind nuclear war is the same as those sad mad fucks who kill - or throw acid in the faces of - their former girlfriends (or wives). If I can't have her, nobody else is going to.

Mutually Assured Destruction. The spurned lover, or the loser in world conflict isn't going to go away quietly.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on June 04, 2019, 10:53:07 AM
The EU was never created/sold as an imperial force, a superstate, a United States of Europe. It was intended to facilitate trade and promote peace. When a project gets mis-sold, the deceit and the lies will inevitably come home to roost. The English were right to instinctively want out, even though they didn't understand what they were voting for. Sturgeon on the other hand, is either incredibly stupid or is playing politics and lying to us in pursing her main goal.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on June 04, 2019, 11:42:26 AM
The United States of Europe

Yes, that's the dream, the quicker the better.

With a single currency, something that the yanks have fought hard against.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on June 04, 2019, 01:38:21 PM
The United States of Europe

Yes, that's the dream, the quicker the better.

With a single currency, something that the yanks have fought hard against.

But it isn't the dream. Certainly not of the EU. If you read the article above by Rocket then you'd know that. Followed up by the Lisbon treaty and its surplus requirements. Did you complete ignore what happened to Greece? Stripped of everything, accused of being lazy, pension-dwelling scum. Public sector absolutely trashed. Then trashed again. All part of the globalist expansionist neo-liberal carve up. All because they lost the ability to produce the money required themselves. Only an utter moron would suggest a country join the Euro in its current form. It would either destroy the UK, or someone less well off would get destroyed on our behalf (more likely). It's an absolutely disgusting setup, and not even remotely like the USD. The US looks after its states. It recycles its surpluses. The EU is so far removed from that its unbelievable. The fact that you don't understand that, but advocate that position, is just blatant ignorance. A United States of Europe would be absolutely fine, but if you think that's what the EU is, was or will ever be then you're massively wrong.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on June 04, 2019, 03:20:04 PM
The reason why USE can never happen where the USA was highly successful is simple. History.

Creating a "coalition of counties" (or of regions) in a new land, framed by natural borders and centralising power with the consent of all the constituent parts was a one-off opportunity that made sense and it worked.

The Southern European countries are too culturally different from the rest of Europe. The laissez faire and manjana attitude to work in Greece, Spain, Portugal etc. is an anathema to every other ambitious country. The non-payment of taxes and the lack of civic duty (and pride) in the south is poles apart from the hard-working and hard-saving Germans in particular, another reason why the EMU was always going to be a failed project and why the Euro will die, already in its latter stages of life, still relatively new and fresh off the mint.

Much as the few would love a United States of Europe and have been pushing us towards it by stealth, the people won't accept it. There are certain lines you don't cross. Trump just crossed one when he said the NHS was on the table in our yet-to-be-negotiated trade deal. He's so thick he can't even disguise his intentions and money is the only priority of him and his ilk, just as it is the central agenda of the unelected bureaucrats, in the pockets of their financier backers.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on June 04, 2019, 03:36:07 PM
Fuck the queen, the English, the union fuckin jack and most of all fuck any concept of the united kindom.

Europe forever
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on June 04, 2019, 03:44:17 PM
Fuck the queen, the English, the union fuckin jack and most of all fuck any concept of the united kindom.

Europe forever

I think you're confused and it is your bigotry towards the English that blinds you.

We have more in common with the people of Newcastle, Rotherham, Bristol, Southampton etc. than we do with the Italians and the Swedes for example, the former being accepting of corruption as a "way of life", the latter loving nakedness, shit food and flat pack crap quality characterless furniture.

I spent three days in Leeds over the weekend, well Headingley, a suburb thereof. I met some fantastic people, including of different ethnicities. The Pakistani guy with the perfect Yorkshire accent (and outlook, unsurprisingly having been born there 50 years ago) cracked me up. We don't even speak the same language as the vast majority of Europe far less share a mentality and attitude.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on June 04, 2019, 04:19:13 PM
I’m perfectly happy to be equal members of the EU with the English.

It’s when they get all dominant and imperialistic ( which is a lot ) that I have a problem with.


Edit : I have absolutely nothing in common with any fuckin Geordie
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on June 04, 2019, 06:46:56 PM
USE wouldn't work on language grounds far less monetary. They'd have to establish a "main" language to be the official language  perhaps with one lesser language as an official "secondary language. The USA works because of this....vast majority speaking English with a few pockets of Spanish speakers dotted along the Mexican border in Texas and Arizona.

As things stand English is the preferred global language of business and if the UK stayed in this conglomeration, would probably be the official language. If we were outwith it? Then the fun and games would begin. In the European Parliament right now, the official languages are English and French having equal standing. Although every document is translated into each state's individual language. Thus the French would claim that their language should be the official language. But hang on..

Germany would turn around and say that as the biggest contributors to the finanacial pot that German should be the official language. The Spaniards would claim that globally Spanish is the first language of far more population than even English is, taking into account the Central and South American countries therefore they should take precedence.

The Austrian Empire failed not only because of defeat in WW1...but also because its constituent parts wanted self determination and the right to speak their native tongues....Czech/Slovak/Hungarian/Serbo-Croat/Romanian. The lesser countries of a USE would demand the same rights.

And all this without even delving into the political differences and aspirations of the various regions, not to mention financial disparity of the relatively prosperous north v basket cases of the south.

If anything, assuming the UK leaves the EU, I suspect others will follow within a relatively short time frame. Austria being first I predict. Possibly the Visegrad countries as well. And Germany may decide it's sick of subsidising everyone else an hold an in/out referendum. If they go...the whole shebang collapses
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on September 05, 2019, 08:10:33 AM
The original question "will it happen?" wasn't one I thought we needed to worry about before. I naively thought that the people had spoken and that Parliament had a duty to implement the will of the people.

Given the stuff since, there is now a danger that it won't. The "deal" that May offered, the one that Yanis described as one that "only a losing nation in a war could accept", the one that Boris was the first to rebel against when presented at Chequers, the one that was rejected repeatedly in Parliament, may have been deliberately offered in full expectation that it would be rejected.

With the expulsion of May and the introduction of the bumbling blond fool, at least the new PM knows that leaving the EU is what should happen - best interests of the UK + it's what we voted for - but he has no idea how to achieve it. Without a majority and consensus, the only guarantee is nothing will happen. The Westminster rhetoric is being confused by the SNP in particular who are mixing messages, uninterested in what the UK voted for and doggedly pursuing independence.

It's a fucking mess and if the Scottish people do now have the appetite to leave England, I would have far preferred the SNP to have delivered a clear vision rather than relying on Tory incompetence to swing 2 or 3% of the remainers. Currency, economy and the type of EU membership are big implications for an independent Scotland and there is no further progress since the last failed referendum on the key issues. The SNP banking on Tory splits is one thing, that they're continuing to sell nothing concrete themselves makes it less likely that they'll get a majority to any indyref that England won't allow us to have so soon anyway.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on September 05, 2019, 11:33:56 AM
With the expulsion of May and the introduction of the bumbling blond fool, at least the new PM knows that leaving the EU is what should happen - best interests of the UK + it's what we voted for - but he has no idea how to achieve it. Without a majority and consensus, the only guarantee is nothing will happen. The Westminster rhetoric is being confused by the SNP in particular who are mixing messages, uninterested in what the UK voted for and doggedly pursuing independence.

Good. It's literally their job to look after Scotland and Scots. 62% of whom voted to remain as we all know. Although due to us rejecting independence 2 years previously I would and still would accept ending up out of the EU despite that not being what I voted for personally. We made our bed so we should lie in it. And that should apply too to the Tories who voted May as their leader. They made their bed. They elected a remainer who apparently negotiated a shite deal. They then elected a man severely lacking in any sort of diplomacy skills required to bring MPs together. I still think Brexit will happen but if it doesn't it's no one's fault but said Tories.

It's a fucking mess and if the Scottish people do now have the appetite to leave England, I would have far preferred the SNP to have delivered a clear vision rather than relying on Tory incompetence to swing 2 or 3% of the remainers. Currency, economy and the type of EU membership are big implications for an independent Scotland and there is no further progress since the last failed referendum on the key issues. The SNP banking on Tory splits is one thing, that they're continuing to sell nothing concrete themselves makes it less likely that they'll get a majority to any indyref that England won't allow us to have so soon anyway.

I think the SNP will deliver a clear(er) vision. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from the 2014 whitepaper and if those lessons aren't learned then again the SNP will have to take responsibility. I can hardly think of any circumstances in which I wouldn't vote for independence so to me it almost doesn't matter what's in the whitepaper but for others it very much does so they need to get it right. The Tory incompetence will undoubtedly speed up the time between indyrefs but I don't think the SNP are relying on it. Like everyone else they're trying to navigate the political minefield that is the UK at the moment.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on September 05, 2019, 12:01:25 PM
Whilst this whole mess was created (and has been continued) by the Tories, the main issue has always been the Irish border.  It was never properly discussed, or conveniently largely ignored, during the referendum debates.

There are posts in this very thread from 2 years ago saying there are no solutions to this.  Although a unified Ireland is probably the only solution for a clean and orderly Brexit.

I have never believed Brexit would take place.

Oh and I see BoJo's brother can't be bothered with it all now either.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on September 05, 2019, 02:02:47 PM
I have absolutely no problem with the SNP's position on Brexit as Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain and indeed, even when broken down into individual constituencies, each and every one returned a vote to remain. As has ben said, the SNP's job is to look after Scottish interests so if that conflates with UK interests then so be it.

That said, as things stand we are still a part of the UK. And the UK as a whole voted to leave. The Government was entrusted to ensure this happened but Theresa May wasn't satisfied with the majority she inherited from Cameron and felt she could strengthen her position in 2017 by holding a very early election. Bizarrely the Tories actually strengthened their position in Scotland but overall lost some of the majority and ended up weaker. This ennobled Remainers to star to do everything in their power to frustrate the Brexit process. The Irish backstop was Remainers "bonus ball" get out where they could pretty much always vote down any deal May was able to negotiate, although it turned out she was as weak as water anyway and the European negotiators left the table each time offering deals that in essence meant that we were only leaving in name only and to all purposes really weren't leaving at all.

The Irish backstop has no solution other than a return to a hard border. Not even Boris would be mad enough to risk that one given that certain factions of the IRA are already showing signs of a return to action. A hard border and full on terrorist activity would be inevitable. However any other option discussed so far has no real support and some of the ideas put forward have no technology available to implement them even if they could theoretically work. I'm certain that an Ireland wide plebiscite on reuniting the island is only a matter of 3 to 5years down the line and I think the result will be a united Ireland..........probably the best option all round although the Unionists will be furious and likely a good number will demand resettlement somewhere in Britain.

As for Brexit........will it happen? No I don't think it will now. The Tories should increase their standing in England in the inevitable forthcoming election but will lose a few seats in Scotland so likely we will still end up with a hung Parliament. I'm not sure then what I'd prefer.....a Boris led minority administration or a Corbyn coalition propped up by the SNP and Lib Dems. Either way, Brexit won't happen as the remainers should find enough support to frustrate any attempts to leave. A Corbyn led coalition would just cancel it full stop.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on September 05, 2019, 03:44:52 PM
Whilst this whole mess was created (and has been continued) by the Tories, the main issue has always been the Irish border.  It was never properly discussed, or conveniently largely ignored, during the referendum debates.

There are posts in this very thread from 2 years ago saying there are no solutions to this.  Although a unified Ireland is probably the only solution for a clean and orderly Brexit.

I have never believed Brexit would take place.

Oh and I see BoJo's brother can't be bothered with it all now either.


There will be nothing clean or orderly about the unification of Ireland. The proddies will kick aff big time. There was a riot just the other week in the Weej when a Irish Unity march was countered with a large group of UJ waving Huns. I'd love to see it but I can't envisage Ireland being unified full stop and certainly not without some large scale disturbance.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: tom_widdows on September 07, 2019, 04:10:49 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBPZxbO7OLM
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on September 09, 2019, 01:03:58 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBPZxbO7OLM


Aye but it's really because of concerns about democracy.  ::) ::)

The nail has been struck square on the heid. Explains why Boris would "rather be dead in a ditch" than delay further.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on September 12, 2019, 06:45:09 AM
https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/11/brexit-disaster-capitalism-8-billion-bet-on-no-deal-crash-out-by-boris-johnsons-leave-backers/

Quote
So, how much are these firms set to make from Boris Johnson’s ‘do or die’ approach to Brexit?

From the financial data publicly available, Byline Times can reveal that currently £4,563,350,000 (£4.6 billion) of aggregate short positions on a ‘no deal’ Brexit have been taken out by hedge funds that directly or indirectly bankrolled Boris Johnson’s leadership campaign.

Most of these firms also donated to Vote Leave and took out short positions on the EU Referendum result. The ones which didn’t typically didn’t exist at that time but are invariably connected via directorships to companies that did.

Another £3,711,000,000 (£3.7 billion) of these short positions have been taken out by firms that donated to the Vote Leave campaign, but did not donate directly to the Johnson leadership campaign.

Currently, £8,274,350,000 (£8.3 billion) of aggregate short positions has been taken out by hedge funds connected to the Prime Minister and his Vote Leave campaign, run by his advisor Dominic Cummings, on a ‘no deal’ Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on September 24, 2019, 02:54:28 PM
Ach, lawyers are a bunch of fucking wankers, no good for fuck all.

I know what Boris was trying but he didn't even have the intelligence to ensure that he was on solid ground. He really is the charlatan arsehole of no principle that we all knew he was. He didn't take long to prove it.

The people want to get away from the corrupt EU programme. It would save us money and allow us to progress. Not just us, if we are allowed to leave the EU, the system itself would implode and the peoples of other progressive countries would benefit too.

The lawyers and the weak have fucked it up. Corbyn can't make a decision on how to wipe his arse. Politicians are all fucking useless. Farage is licking his lips at this.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on September 24, 2019, 04:03:05 PM
 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Europe for Ever
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: tom_widdows on September 24, 2019, 08:42:38 PM
Just because

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZEXyzBdtGg&feature=share
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Elgindon on October 13, 2019, 01:13:32 PM

 Alternative Brexit listen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xq-gWv91WM

 Full length interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGvZil0qWPg
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on October 17, 2019, 07:17:37 PM
It's all down to our "democratically-elected" MP's now, following the sickening charade Boris and Juncker put on.

It ain't gonna happen.

Message to the bankers; you shouldn't gamble in speculative punts with other people's money.

Message to the bureaucrats; get yersel a decent job.

Message to the people; wake the fuck up you fucking thick cunts.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on October 18, 2019, 08:24:54 AM
It's all down to our "democratically-elected" MP's now, following the sickening charade Boris and Juncker put on.

It ain't gonna happen.

Message to the bankers; you shouldn't gamble in speculative punts with other people's money.

Message to the bureaucrats; get yersel a decent job.

Message to the people; wake the fuck up you fucking thick cunts.


What, in your opinion, should now happen, Rocket? And what do you think will happen?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on October 18, 2019, 08:49:02 AM

What, in your opinion, should now happen, Rocket? And what do you think will happen?

I have no idea really. Do you have an opinion on this?

What should have happened a long time ago is that our MP's should have delivered the will of the people. We didn't vote on a deal. We voted to get the fuck away from the EU.

What I think will happen is that Parliament will vote tomorrow to reject the deal. That would mean an extension and yet more guff and nonsense. It's a shambles. Cameron never thought the people would vote leave. Emboldened by his ability to convince the Scots to stay, he thought the whole of England would do what he told them to and remain.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on October 18, 2019, 09:31:45 AM
I have no idea really. Do you have an opinion on this?

What should have happened a long time ago is that our MP's should have delivered the will of the people. We didn't vote on a deal. We voted to get the fuck away from the EU.

What I think will happen is that Parliament will vote tomorrow to reject the deal. That would mean an extension and yet more guff and nonsense. It's a shambles. Cameron never thought the people would vote leave. Emboldened by his ability to convince the Scots to stay, he thought the whole of England would do what he told them to and remain.

Of course I have an opinion.

We voted Leave on the basis of a "great deal" We'd get "a great deal because they need us more than we need them". We were lied to over and over and over again. Of course the sentient amongst us recognised this. We did not vote for a hard Brexit.

I'm of the opinion that hurting the pride of the Brexiters on all levels is of little importance and that we should extend the Brexit date until such times as we're ready for it (or as ready as we can be). Boris said he'd rather be dead in a ditch than ask for an extension. Tough shit Boris. If we need one we'll ask for one weather it hurts your stupid pride or not.

I have a sneaky feeling he'll get this deal through parliament though. It might cost a few more billion to sweeten the DUP though. But Boris is clearly looking for a Brexit at any fucking cost as shown by the deal he's "miraculously negotiated" being worse than the one that that useless cunt Theresa May organised.


FWIW the Scots convinced themselves to stay. Stupid cunts.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on October 18, 2019, 09:41:37 AM
I think the vote tomorrow will actually be pretty close......perhaps within 10 votes either way. Naturally the fervent anti-Brexiteers will attempt, and likely succeed, in adding all sorts of amendments prior to the final vote happening. The most obvious one being that they will try to force in a clause subjecting a carried motion on the final deal to a confirmatory referendum. And of course there are still MP's with their heads stuck firmly in the sand demanding further 3 month extensions despite the EU saying themselves that this will not happen.

The best thing coming out of tomorrow will be that the Government will finally get their desired wish of a General Election. Labour quite obviously don't want one as a disaffected public take their revenge, especially if sitting Labour MP's in seats that voted leave take the whip tomorrow and vote the agreement down. Whether or not the Tories gain enough seats from Labour down south to gain an overall majority is up for debate though. Especially as they will likely lose 5-7 seats to the SNP in Scotland. And of course the Brexit Party themselves could put a spanner in the Tory works by fielding candidates that split the natural right leaning vote and allow the Lib Dems especially to make gains by default.

The only certainty in it all is that Scotland will get its second referendum next year.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on October 18, 2019, 10:34:56 AM
The only certainty in it all is that Scotland will get its second referendum next year.

But the government need to allow us a further referendum, the "once in a generation" opportunity that we blew already.

So who are the government going to be and why are they going to grant their permission?

I don't see the "certainty" you speak of.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: manc_don on October 19, 2019, 03:54:40 AM
The only certainty would be that the SNP want that. Whether they get it is completely different. I can't see it unless the political landscape changes significantly and the SNP can get someone to do a deal with them.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on October 19, 2019, 09:39:39 AM
If BoJo gets his “Brexit” (I believe it’s a no deal he’s still going for - hence why the ERG are suddenly on board) then it’ll lead to the break up of the Union - Ireland and Scotland definitely, probably Wales. That’s one helluva legacy he’s going to have.

Looks like the vote might get dropped as the Letwin amendment will pull the rug from under the cabal’s feat. If the vote does go ahead and it goes through, then it will be a very dark day for Labour. Corbyn is just as complicit in this whole horror show.

I think BoJo and Cummings have miscalculated things though as I think Farage will come for them at a GE if this mess is still unresolved.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on October 19, 2019, 09:51:30 AM
FWIW the Scots convinced themselves to stay. Stupid cunts.

What the SNP ignore is that 40% of us voted to leave the EU. It suits their agenda to keep on repeating Scotland voted to stay in and it's a good political lever but you're right about stupid cunts. Indyref and the last GE proved this beyond all reasonable doubt.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on October 19, 2019, 10:46:24 AM
If the UK government refuse us a referendum, Sturgeon will just make a Scottish law in Holyrood to hold one anyway. Of course it will hold no status under UK law as it stands....but if it is held and there is a majority for independence, would the Uk government really stop us seceding?

For what it's worth I'm not convinced it is quite the right time. In general, folk over 65 are against independence for many reasons, not least having grown up with and lived through times where the NHS was created (or was a very new creation), a welfare state that in its early years worked as it was designed to do and nationalised industries that provided steady secure jobs. That generation will never vote anything other than to stay in the union. But they are slowly dying off. And being replaced by 16 year olds who are altogether far more open to the prospect of independence. So I'd rather hold off another 5 years or so by which time the UK hopefully will have exited the EU and Scotland can see just what a disaster that has been.

If we hold it next year I think we would lose  along the lines of 52% to 48%. And then we really cannot have another one for a full generation.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: donsdaft on October 19, 2019, 02:53:18 PM
Stuff it up your a'rse Boris.

Have you won a vote yet?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on October 21, 2019, 10:56:56 AM
If the UK government refuse us a referendum, Sturgeon will just make a Scottish law in Holyrood to hold one anyway. Of course it will hold no status under UK law as it stands....but if it is held and there is a majority for independence, would the Uk government really stop us seceding?

Sturgeon has made it very clear time and time again that she won't do this. Looks where it got Catalonia.

For what it's worth I'm not convinced it is quite the right time. In general, folk over 65 are against independence for many reasons, not least having grown up with and lived through times where the NHS was created (or was a very new creation), a welfare state that in its early years worked as it was designed to do and nationalised industries that provided steady secure jobs. That generation will never vote anything other than to stay in the union. But they are slowly dying off. And being replaced by 16 year olds who are altogether far more open to the prospect of independence. So I'd rather hold off another 5 years or so by which time the UK hopefully will have exited the EU and Scotland can see just what a disaster that has been.

If we hold it next year I think we would lose  along the lines of 52% to 48%. And then we really cannot have another one for a full generation.


I think you're probably right in that Yes would lose again. But didn't the SNP vote to drastically increase the state pension in the event of Indy? That might talk some of the fossils round.


As an aside I wish to fuck everyone would stop using the term "once in a generation". The political landscape has rarely changed so much and so quickly than it has in recent years and using a term like "once in a generation" just isn't a promise that should be made or necessarily kept. It's used by those who are fucking terrified of losing the status quo.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on October 21, 2019, 11:07:29 AM
I think it was Salmond who first used "once in a lifetime opportunity" (for independence) and when he fucked that up, his opponents jumped on this and the "once in a generation" phrase was born.

The political landscape may have changed but the people haven't. Scots are still stupid and feart of change. What also hasn't changed is that a successful campaign needs a clear vision and a convincing case to be made. There were so many unanswered questions last time - including the basics such as currency - that until the SNP spell out a bigger and better case, Indyref 2 would fail again (if held so soon).
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on October 21, 2019, 06:46:03 PM
Well I hate to disagree but if the Tories some how manage to force a hard Brexit or even a no deal down Scotland’s throats, there will be many more voting for independence.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Kowalski on December 13, 2019, 08:40:35 AM
Time to admit I was wrong, I said it would never happen, but it will now.  I'm not sure *everybody* who voted for BoJo last night realise that it will still drag on for a number of years yet.

I blame Labour, the Lib Dems and the so-called "Peoples Vote" cabal for playing their cards very poorly.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 13, 2019, 11:15:54 AM
Even if Boris allowed Indyref 2, I'm still not confident of winning it. The results yesterday and an increased SNP share may well have been votes against Brexit more than pro-independence. Westminster are desperate to hold on to Scotland. There are reasons for this. Whatever the reasons that Scots think it's a good idea to be part of the union, they escape me but if Boris was to grant us the Indyref asap, I'm sure it would fail again. It's all shit.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on December 16, 2019, 10:21:41 AM
Even if Boris allowed Indyref 2, I'm still not confident of winning it. The results yesterday and an increased SNP share may well have been votes against Brexit more than pro-independence. Westminster are desperate to hold on to Scotland. There are reasons for this. Whatever the reasons that Scots think it's a good idea to be part of the union, they escape me but if Boris was to grant us the Indyref asap, I'm sure it would fail again. It's all shit.


Agreed. Getting another Indyref will be the easy bit. Convincing over 50% to vote yes will be the hard bit. I don't think it'll happen anymore. Not soon anyway. Maybe Indyref 3, 4 or 5. :)
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 16, 2019, 10:52:59 AM

Agreed. Getting another Indyref will be the easy bit. Convincing over 50% to vote yes will be the hard bit. I don't think it'll happen anymore. Not soon anyway. Maybe Indyref 3, 4 or 5. :)

I disagree. A day is a long time in politics. The main reason why I reckon 72% of Scotland would vote for independence now was what happened last night. The fucking BBC took the Sports Personality of the Year programme to our country, to our town and handed the main prize to a fucking cricketer. Plus they had a big Welsh weirdo cycling up the country to deliver it to him. Sickening behaviour and quintessentially English. Funny when she said the horse lassie was dressed in a jihad and the Doddie Weir tribute was quite moving even though rugger buggers give me the creeps. His wife was quite nice though. Brexit is happening now and independence isn't. Everything Nicola didn't want. Her lack of dignity was noted when celebrating too vehemently at another's demise. She speaks about being in touch with the people. She's not. She's a fucking idiot who married a man who looks like a fucking nothing. It's still all shit.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Garlogie_Granite on December 16, 2019, 11:28:42 AM
Her lack of dignity was noted when celebrating too vehemently at another's demise. She speaks about being in touch with the people. She's not.
1. She was celebrating Amy Callaghan's amazing win, on the back of fighting off cancer, she fought off a UK party leader.
2. I met her couple weekends back when she toured the local constituencies, room of 50 people, spoke to every single one individually. A quite amazing presence she has. Probably beyond your wit though?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 16, 2019, 11:37:05 AM
There's more proof of her incapacity. Why would a potential national leader waste time on deadbeats like you? If she, and Salmond weren't oddball losers, we might have had a chance at independence.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Ten Caat on December 16, 2019, 12:55:35 PM
Interesting "plan B" put forward by Angus Brendan MacNeil....MP for the Ooter Hebrides. In the event Bojo refuses a second referendum, all 48 SNP MP's to resign and force 48 by-elections standing on a (if I have picked it up correctly) ticket of abandoning a second referendum and just declaring independence should a majority in Scotland overall (min 30) be re-elected.

I suppose it would indeed show how many SNP voters are truly voting for independence as opposed to using their vote as just a rejection of the Tories (or Labour and Lib Dems). And I suspect would have a greater chance of success rather than an indyref 2 right now, which I still maintain would result in another No victory at this point in time.

Personally, if I were formulating SNP policy now, I'd be creating laws and initiatives specifically designed to totally piss off England (ie massive public spending on shit that they don't/won't get) and hopefully encourage their more nationalistic citizens to start to think about the benefits of English independence. Because right now I just think that independence by default is probably our best chance.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on December 16, 2019, 01:11:00 PM
Interesting "plan B" put forward by Angus Brendan MacNeil....MP for the Ooter Hebrides. In the event Bojo refuses a second referendum, all 48 SNP MP's to resign and force 48 by-elections standing on a (if I have picked it up correctly) ticket of abandoning a second referendum and just declaring independence should a majority in Scotland overall (min 30) be re-elected.

I suppose it would indeed show how many SNP voters are truly voting for independence as opposed to using their vote as just a rejection of the Tories (or Labour and Lib Dems). And I suspect would have a greater chance of success rather than an indyref 2 right now, which I still maintain would result in another No victory at this point in time.

Personally, if I were formulating SNP policy now, I'd be creating laws and initiatives specifically designed to totally piss off England (ie massive public spending on shit that they don't/won't get) and hopefully encourage their more nationalistic citizens to start to think about the benefits of English independence. Because right now I just think that independence by default is probably our best chance.


Wouldn't that entail finding 48 (Or 49 once Neale Hanvey gets let back in) other SNP candidates to stand? I assume you can't resign and then stand in the by election that you've facilitated by resigning? Maybe you can.

Massive gamble, that. It would be the last throw of the dice. In the likely event that it would fail it should be the end of the SNP. I've wanted a promise from them to disband in the event of a Yes vote but if they do that and fail we'll need new pro indy parties to take us forward even before we're independent.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 16, 2019, 01:11:29 PM
Interesting "plan B" put forward by Angus Brendan MacNeil....MP for the Ooter Hebrides. In the event Bojo refuses a second referendum, all 48 SNP MP's to resign and force 48 by-elections standing on a (if I have picked it up correctly) ticket of abandoning a second referendum and just declaring independence should a majority in Scotland overall (min 30) be re-elected.

Not only would that be undemocratic, it's just plain stupid.

THERE IS NO STOMACH FOR INDEPENDENCE RIGHT NOW.

It's up to somebody, anybody, to put forward a coherent and workable case. Salmond didn't do that. Sturgeon has never done it. It's not fucking difficult. We CAN be successful as an independent country. It just needs to be "sold" properly and if Nicola was half as intelligent as she needs to be - to drive through a case that the majority of Scots can vote for - then she needs to do the due diligence, which includes talking to and negotiating with the EU before presenting the facts that the people can believe in.

Of course there are prejudiced old bigots like me (Fuck Westminster and England) who would vote Yes every time but I'm the minority and as evidenced by Question Time last week, there are still people out there who think England are subsidising us!!! Which begs the question well why are they so desperate to keep us and why will Boris say no to Indyref 2? Cameron was almost in tears selling us the better together shite.

DO YOUR FUCKING JOB SNP. Put the numbers together and put forward a good case.

It's out there. Nippie sweetie Sturgeon hasn't done it. She's too bitter and as an oddball, she doesn't understand that Scots will NOT vote for it right now. It's almost like she's believing her own hype and has totally skewed her own agenda by wrongfully holding her hat on the Brexit divisions between Scotland and England. It's all shite. We Scots can't run a piss-up in a brewery when we have incompetent politicians in charge.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on December 16, 2019, 01:21:10 PM
There's more proof of her incapacity. Why would a potential national leader waste time on deadbeats like you? If she, and Salmond weren't oddball losers, we might have had a chance at independence.

The biggest problem with both for me was that they made/make very obvious errors. The obvious one for Salmond was the currency issue. I was happy enough with the fact that he addressed it clearly, it's just that he chose the wrong option. It was always going to be a Scottish currency. Always. No point in an independent Scotland without it.

Sturgeon's biggest issue is party control, which makes her look competent compared to others on the wanky debates, but there is little substance behind her headlines. Always has been. Backed up by the SNP's weak performance on education, hospitals, fake-PFI and so forth.

Both competent politicians of course, but that's not what we need to gain independence in my mind. Unless a few actual thinkers join the board of the next referendum then we'll be left with another campaign that centres around candidate rather than the goal and I think that will be Sturgeon's downfall.

Garlogie, it's fairly easy for a party leader to visit their supporters; they'll get very little worthwhile feedback there. Her "presence" wouldn't be felt by someone who wasn't pre-loaded with deference (not a criticism of you). I don't think the SNPs performance in government has been good enough and I think that will be equated with independence when the time again comes. I think we can do much better.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 16, 2019, 01:22:08 PM
Joanna Cherry is who we need, not weirdo Sturgeon. Someone intelligent, credible and who has actual experience of the real world.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: minijc on December 16, 2019, 01:32:40 PM
It's quite fitting that a cricketer won award when it's up here in Aberdeen as more people, per capita play cricket up here than anywhere else in the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 16, 2019, 01:38:16 PM
It's quite fitting that a cricketer won award when it's up here in Aberdeen as more people, per capita play cricket up here than anywhere else in the UK.

More per capita voted Tory too. That also does make them bad people. Cricket (and Rugby) should be outlawed in the independent republic of Aberdonia.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: minijc on December 16, 2019, 01:39:16 PM
More per capita voted Tory too. That also does make them bad people. Cricket (and Rugby) should be outlawed in the independent republic of Aberdonia.
Cricket stays I'm sorry, had a great time a few years ago playing a match at Balmoral Castle.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 16, 2019, 01:44:33 PM
Cricket stays I'm sorry, had a great time a few years ago playing a match at Balmoral Castle.

You won't get a choice I'm afraid. Democracy is selective. We need to educate our people properly and toadying is most definitely out of bounds. This includes respect for the English institutions and practises so Balmoral will be forcibly taken and sold to the highest bidder (Aberdonia passport holder only obviously), the proceeds going to the republic.

All our loons will be forced to play fitba and golf until such time it becomes apparent they're shite at it.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: minijc on December 16, 2019, 01:49:25 PM
You won't get a choice I'm afraid. Democracy is selective. We need to educate our people properly and toadying is most definitely out of bounds. This includes respect for the English institutions and practises so Balmoral will be forcibly taken and sold to the highest bidder (Aberdonia passport holder only obviously), the proceeds going to the republic.

All our loons will be forced to play fitba and golf until such time it becomes apparent they're shite at it.
I can get onboard with this actually, if I ever had a kid it would be pushed towards golf, so much money to be made if you've got what it takes and a great chance to see the world.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Garlogie_Granite on December 16, 2019, 03:28:19 PM
There's more proof of her incapacity. Why would a potential national leader waste time on deadbeats like you? If she, and Salmond weren't oddball losers, we might have had a chance at independence.
Well because deadbeats like me got off our fat arses, and hit the streets to drum up voters, whereas fat arses like you spend your time spikkin shite in places like this, then criticise those who've made an effort, and made a difference.

That's the difference between you and me, I'm a do-er, you're just dour.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 16, 2019, 03:59:20 PM
Well because deadbeats like me got off our fat arses, and hit the streets to drum up voters, whereas fat arses like you spend your time spikkin shite in places like this, then criticise those who've made an effort, and made a difference.

That's the difference between you and me, I'm a do-er, you're just dour.  :thumbsup:

The differences between me and the likes of you - other than you being fat and me not - isn't even measurable, being on different planets.

Not one SNP canvasser hit the area I live in. Not one leaflet through the door either. All of us in the village were astounded by that. The Tories hit us multiple times and so I blame YOU and your lazy fat-arsed mates. Your flawed strategy allowed Bowie to win again. That plus you do half a days shift and think it's time to go to the pub. It's because low quality humans like you representing the SNP that we lost. Did you tell them on the doorsteps that your wife likes to pretend she's so fista cayted?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on December 17, 2019, 10:33:36 AM
The fact that some folk need leaflets through their door before they know who to vote for is a disgrace.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 17, 2019, 10:54:38 AM
The fact that some folk need leaflets through their door before they know who to vote for is a disgrace.

It is but there are many undecideds who get influenced by the campaigns and who focus on style rather than substance. Blair and Boris succeeded because the complicit media have made it all about personality politics. In Blair's case, the country took the right decision (at the time) but he took "New Labour" down an old establishment path. Boris's landslide was made possible by the consistent demonisation of Corbyn (since day one, simply because he was a threat to the deep state) and Brexit. Corbyn fucked up catastrophically and couldn't make a decision so the thick racists in middle England thought lending the Tories their vote was the clever thing to do this time.

I don't think there were many who could've predicted such a resounding Boris win. The Tories certainly didn't anticipate that the UK would vote Leave in 2016. It's all shite.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 17, 2019, 11:18:06 AM
Malcolm X warned us fifty years ago: -

"This is the media, an irresponsible media. It will make the criminal look like he's the victim and make the victim look like he's the criminal. If you aren't careful, the media will have you hating the people who are oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. This is the sort of propaganda tactic that I would call psychological warfare".
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on December 17, 2019, 11:38:02 AM
Malcolm X warned us fifty years ago: -

"This is the media, an irresponsible media. It will make the criminal look like he's the victim and make the victim look like he's the criminal. If you aren't careful, the media will have you hating the people who are oppressed and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. This is the sort of propaganda tactic that I would call psychological warfare".

Thon's a good quote. People like me have the tendency to assume that this generation is the first to experience this level of media interference, but it's nae. The interference is the same, with the same results, but the delivery vehicle of social media is just different. Same as it ever was.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 17, 2019, 11:48:08 AM
The media being owned by only 5 or 6 complicit establishment people is one problem but I wonder how ALL their employees manage to toe the party line? Surely there would be ONE journalist of integrity who would want to reveal the truth? The Sky and BBC anchors and hacks turn my stomach.

I also wonder how Zuckerberg got turned? Did federal agents visit him at night and deliver the agenda that he must follow? I'm pretty sure that when he was at Harvard and stealing the idea for Facebook, he didn't have social oppression and disinformation as his priorities. The likes of Cambridge Analytica got caught (by Channel 4) but the likes of them still operate in the background and are used and abused by the likes of Cummings. Seedy and corrupt and all shite.

Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on December 17, 2019, 12:12:06 PM
The media being owned by only 5 or 6 complicit establishment people is one problem but I wonder how ALL their employees manage to toe the party line? Surely there would be ONE journalist of integrity who would want to reveal the truth? The Sky and BBC anchors and hacks turn my stomach.

The problem is that they'd only last a single inconsequential broadcast before being hooked. The easiest way to ensure compliance is to employ people who are average, or at least think that they are average. That way, not only do you get the deference aspect when talking to "Prime Minister/Your Majesty/Mr Speaker/Sir/Your Honour/etc", you also get a person who is reliant on you for their employment. Nobody with the "fuck it, I'm ace, I'll just get a job elsewhere". Those that do have the confidence are dicks like Piers Morgan or some such who benefit directly from the society in which they design.

Quote
I also wonder how Zuckerberg got turned? Did federal agents visit him at night and deliver the agenda that he must follow? I'm pretty sure that when he was at Harvard and stealing the idea for Facebook, he didn't have social oppression and disinformation as his priorities. The likes of Cambridge Analytica got caught (by Channel 4) but the likes of them still operate in the background and are used and abused by the likes of Cummings. Seedy and corrupt and all shite.

You've answered your own question I suppose. Zuckerberg will do what will return him money and power. He showed his integrity and colours when he stole Facebook in the first place. When someone came along requesting social oppression in return for money and power, the moral and ethical mechanisms didn't kick in to make him question it because they don't exist in him. Although, in fairness, likes of CA would have passed well below his paygrade, but the ethics of profit before privacy/morals/integrity would have been ingrained in the business model and the employees at the level of authority required would have known what to do when approached with this type of offer. But our system is designed to reward yer Zuckerbergian fuck-sticks. They are the barometer of success rather than excess.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Garlogie_Granite on December 18, 2019, 10:18:03 AM
The differences between me and the likes of you - other than you being fat and me not - isn't even measurable, being on different planets.

Not one SNP canvasser hit the area I live in. Not one leaflet through the door either. All of us in the village were astounded by that. The Tories hit us multiple times and so I blame YOU and your lazy fat-arsed mates. Your flawed strategy allowed Bowie to win again. That plus you do half a days shift and think it's time to go to the pub. It's because low quality humans like you representing the SNP that we lost. Did you tell them on the doorsteps that your wife likes to pretend she's so fista cayted?
WAK was the #1 canvassed constituency in Scotland, wherever I was the shift was generally 11-4ish due to daylight, there would have been evening shifts in a summer election. I believe you're in the Stoney & Mearns area? I never went down there, but they hit every village in their area afaik, maybe you just weren't in? I can't explain lack of canvassing card left behind mind you. 

By contrast every reponse on the doors was that they'd seen no-one from any party. Bowie only knocked on doors the two times he had a "big-name" up from London, once in Aboyne and I think the other in Banchory but not sure on that one, the rest of the time he just leafleted. So I'm afraid once again you're talking pish. You really don't know much about this stuff eh? How's that hung parliament worked out?

Edit - Banchory was Rooth, think only Maybot in Aboyne came up to help him, rest of time it was Burnett, Liam Kerr & local tory councillors.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 18, 2019, 04:55:04 PM
WAK was the #1 canvassed constituency in Scotland, wherever I was the shift was generally 11-4ish due to daylight, there would have been evening shifts in a summer election. I believe you're in the Stoney & Mearns area? I never went down there, but they hit every village in their area afaik, maybe you just weren't in? I can't explain lack of canvassing card left behind mind you. 

By contrast every reponse on the doors was that they'd seen no-one from any party. Bowie only knocked on doors the two times he had a "big-name" up from London, once in Aboyne and I think the other in Banchory but not sure on that one, the rest of the time he just leafleted. So I'm afraid once again you're talking pish. You really don't know much about this stuff eh? How's that hung parliament worked out?

Edit - Banchory was Rooth, think only Maybot in Aboyne came up to help him, rest of time it was Burnett, Liam Kerr & local tory councillors.

Let me get this straight; you're saying that I'm lying about who chapped our doors? I'm not in Mearns or Stoney. When the first Tories came to our door, I posted it up on here! The SNP were conspicuous by their absence and EVERYONE we've spoken to confirms that you fucking didn't come here.

You must be sick and twisted, as well as granite thick. Who else on this planet would use a hung parliament prediction - which was heavily odds on at the time I made it - as some sort of oneupmanship? What sort of retard uses the Tory landslide (a disastrous day for us all) as something to use and attempt to hit another over the head with? If you had been better at your job, the Tories wouldn't have done so well as they did in the NE in 2019 and particularly in 2017. You failed because you're not credible. Go fuck yourself you useless fat cunt. And get over yourself. You spoke shite once. I pointed it out once. Now you seek disputes for EVERY little thing. Grow up.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on December 18, 2019, 07:14:52 PM
WAK was the #1 canvassed constituency in Scotland, wherever I was the shift was generally 11-4ish due to daylight, there would have been evening shifts in a summer election.

They didnae come East of portlethen. Cunts.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Garlogie_Granite on December 18, 2019, 09:52:43 PM
They didnae come East of portlethen. Cunts.
I came down to Portlethen on the last Sunday, we did the tree named streets and then up to schoolhill area late afternoon. The Portlethen mob were out all the time.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Garlogie_Granite on December 18, 2019, 09:58:52 PM
Let me get this straight; you're saying that I'm lying about who chapped our doors? I'm not in Mearns or Stoney. When the first Tories came to our door, I posted it up on here! The SNP were conspicuous by their absence and EVERYONE we've spoken to confirms that you fucking didn't come here.

You must be sick and twisted, as well as granite thick. Who else on this planet would use a hung parliament prediction - which was heavily odds on at the time I made it - as some sort of oneupmanship? What sort of retard uses the Tory landslide (a disastrous day for us all) as something to use and attempt to hit another over the head with? If you had been better at your job, the Tories wouldn't have done so well as they did in the NE in 2019 and particularly in 2017. You failed because you're not credible. Go fuck yourself you useless fat cunt. And get over yourself. You spoke shite once. I pointed it out once. Now you seek disputes for EVERY little thing. Grow up.
hey arse sitter, a hung parliament was never odds on,  but if you look back I said it was lookin bad, you ridiculed that saying I must be some sort of retard, I was right, despite you backing the "heavily Odds on option". If you'd had the ability to think for yourself instead of just following the bookies maybe you'd have seen what was coming.

Anyway, fair enough, in the most canvassed constituency in Scotland, you saw no snp team, but you did see our tory canvassing even tho he did very little of that. Good to know. Where do you live because this seems like a load of shit to me?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: RicoS321 on December 18, 2019, 11:35:56 PM
I came down to Portlethen on the last Sunday, we did the tree named streets and then up to schoolhill area late afternoon. The Portlethen mob were out all the time.

East of Portlethen, nae Portlethen itself. Nae fucker turned up. Good on ye though for your effort.
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 19, 2019, 03:53:47 AM
This was tweeted by someone called "Lisa Avenging Angel Tucker-Clemens": -

I'm trying to get my head around why anyone would turn down what Labour and Corbyn were offering? I want to know why Brexit was more important in your minds than all Labour offered? I want to know what you think Brexit will bring that is so good? What made Brexit override all?
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Tyrant on December 19, 2019, 08:26:44 AM
This was tweeted by someone called "Lisa Avenging Angel Tucker-Clemens": -

I'm trying to get my head around why anyone would turn down what Labour and Corbyn were offering? I want to know why Brexit was more important in your minds than all Labour offered? I want to know what you think Brexit will bring that is so good? What made Brexit override all?


She's not the only one that's been wondering that. No one had any idea that our EU membership was such a problem until Farage told us all it was prior to 2016.

I think I've said in this thread already that I had no one from the SNP at my door. All Tories. The only leaflets that I got were posted.

By the way can we all settle doon with the calling each other fat retard cunts etc. Saves moderators having to think about editing posts which no one wnats to do. 
Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: rocket_scientist on December 19, 2019, 11:14:07 AM
She's not the only one that's been wondering that. No one had any idea that our EU membership was such a problem until Farage told us all it was prior to 2016.

Euroscepticism has been there since day one but given the ideal was indisputably a great one, it was a marginalised minority view through the 70's and 80's. The sheer cost of EU membership had escalated to a level where it had to be questioned. Indeed the costs and benefits of every arrangement should continuously be looked at. It's folly to not consider the pros and cons and in the modern era, the Rees Mogg's and the Gove's and the Johnson's et al became so numerically vociferous that the ERG became a credible voice.

The mantra "taking back control" when regurgitated by Maybot and her administration so frequently made it impossible for them to not carry through with because the stupid illiterate racist electorate took this to mean immigration above all else, not being able to see the many benefits of the UK having migrants.

As Parliament didn't have a majority and most importantly the deal being offered was such a bad one - "one that only a losing country in a war would accept" (as Yanis said on QT) - it became a stalemate whereupon they couldn't "respect the will of the people". It was this alone that gave Cummings and the Tories the opportunity to seize control by calling a winter GE, 3 years before they had to. Hindsight is a great thing but they knew how stupid we, the electorate are and that we would vote ONLY on Brexit. It's all shite.


I think I've said in this thread already that I had no one from the SNP at my door. All Tories. The only leaflets that I got were posted.

Some folk think it's possible for a political party to chap every door in every constituency. They can't accept that the most targeted constituency (apparently) would not be hit. Simple mathematics gets sacrificed by some sense of civic duty. Some folk believe in Santa Claus too. A well brought up child* instinctively knows that one man can't visit every household in the world in one night. Putting aside the fact that more than three quarters of the world is non Christian, one man couldn't even visit every house in Kincorth, or Great Western Road. The child sees through the logistical nonsense of this fairytale.

* Good parenting includes: -

1. Love them
2. Encourage them to think for themselves
3. Teach them to question everything, particularly "conventional wisdom".

The world we live in includes billions who are unable to think for themselves and who are vulnerable to disinformation, which the presstitute media are happy to give them. The region of Scotland that we live in, the North East (including the very constituency I voted in) is an embarrassment to Scotland. Only us and the Tory borders voted conservative. We are out of kilter with our country. Bowie is a nauseating toadying arselicker of the establishment and the SNP still couldn't displace him. It's all shite.

Title: Re: Brexit - Will it happen
Post by: Garlogie_Granite on December 19, 2019, 12:49:30 PM

Some folk think it's possible for a political party to chap every door in every constituency.
Do they? Who?